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 A Clump of Condor Cells 
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Viking Kong
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Viking Kong wrote:
Ryan wrote:
For the child, adoption is the ONLY solution. That is who the pro-lifers lobby for.


Child as in the 'clump of cells' that are in question or a new born baby? Maybe you should post a dictionary entry for child just so we're sure :roll:


Oh I forgot. A baby in development doesn't become a child. It stays as a clump of cells. If you abort the embryo then you abort the child, you abort the teenager, and you abort the adult, because you're making a conscious effort to terminate its existence (which I said because I knew you'd probably try to compare abortion with a miscarriage or some other inevitable accident).

To pro-lifers, a "clump of cells" has the same right to exist as a "child" because a human is a human and you can't take that away from them, no matter how hard to try to dehumanize the "clump of cells". And I can't believe that after all these pages of this, you would be oblivious to that.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:38 am
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Motorman
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Ryan, it is none of your f'ing business where I post. You are beyond anything that I care about, so do whatever you want and I will always just say, BITE ME to you.

And I even posted on music and communism myself. That was just about how music shapes our lives. I don't have all day like some of you. I am sorry to hear about Sandman's marriage situation, but seriously it isn't good for marriages to be on the internet day and night arguing every point like you keep asking me to do and I don't have time because I am married and I actually like to spend time with my spouse and not argue with stubborn angryFox watching men/boys. Get a life is my best suggestion to you.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:53 am
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Godzilla
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Viking Kong wrote:
Child as in the 'clump of cells' that are in question or a new born baby? Maybe you should post a dictionary entry for child just so we're sure :roll:
That "clump of cells" is exactly how a human being shouild be at that age. You were once at that stage in your lifespan, as was I. Do you believe humans should gain or lose rights based upon their age?

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:43 am
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Godzilla
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Ryan wrote:
Oh I forgot. A baby in development doesn't become a child. It stays as a clump of cells. If you abort the embryo then you abort the child, you abort the teenager, and you abort the adult, because you're making a conscious effort to terminate its existence (which I said because I knew you'd probably try to compare abortion with a miscarriage or some other inevitable accident).

To pro-lifers, a "clump of cells" has the same right to exist as a "child" because a human is a human and you can't take that away from them, no matter how hard to try to dehumanize the "clump of cells". And I can't believe that after all these pages of this, you would be oblivious to that.


GREAT POST, RYAN!! 8)

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:44 am
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Godzilla
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Viking Kong wrote:
That may have been slightly ambiguous. What I meant is that "pro-lifers" have to put up with their moral outrage to abortion, whereas people who have abortions face much greater, and dare I say real, problems. Being denied such an option may, on the one hand, allow "pro-lifers" to sleep easy at night having successfully protested against the latest cause, whereas the prevention of a single abortion could ruin the lives of an entire family. There is also the possibility of this all-important 'embryo' developing into an unloved, unhappy person.
But we all have that potential, even now. That doesn't give someone a licence to kill us. And if someone is unloved, we're not actually describing the person; we're describing the people around them. If they don't love the kid, I'd vote for "terminating" them before I'd vote for terminating the kid. We don't "terminate" people because no one loves them.

Viking Kong wrote:
Sandman wrote:
What's ugly about it? Is it morally more significant than getting a tooth or a cyst removed? If so, why?

Sandman wrote:
Actually, abortion screws up the lives of many women to a high degree emotionally. Plus...

I don't know how you can compare abortion to having a tooth removed in one point and in the very next say it screws up lives. None of the people I know who have had their teeth removed have seen their lives fucked up beyond repair because of it.

You're right. The point I didn't get across very well was that even por-choice people say that abortion is ugly, unfortunate, painful, too common, should be rare, etc. So my question is, why is that? The answer is, there's a moral component to forcibly removing a live human being from her mother's womb, causing death. It's not a benign act like having a tooth removed. It's actually a moral wrong. We all instinctively know it violates something. But like the intro to the video said, many mistakenly believe it is often the lesser of two evils.

Viking Kong wrote:
Sandman wrote:
I don't find this self-evident. What do you find laughable about it?

Well my main objection to adoption in this context is simply the scale of it. In order for it to work, there would need to be an equilibrium between the number of people who put their children up for adoption, i.e. the number of would-be abortions, and the number of people who are unable to have children and in addition are willing to adopt. Personally, I don't see that happeneing.

I don't know what the current stats are. But ten years ago there was a waiting list to adopt infants in the in the United States of something like 1.5 million. It just so happens the abortion rate was 1.4 million a year.

Viking Kong wrote:
Sandman wrote:
Why? If it is morally acceptable, what isn't easy about it? What other surgery is described this way?

Sorry but having any major surgery is by no means easy at all. Part of what makes abortion ugly is those involved having to deal with the moral pressures which I think are exaggerated.

Okay, I see what you're saying. I would argue that there's moral pressure because there's actually a moral violation occuring. You would probably argue that the extent of the moral violation is exagerated. I would diasagree, but I see where you're coming from.

Viking Kong wrote:
Sandman wrote:
No one forces parenthood on anyone. If you don't want to care for and raise your child, there are avenues...
I think that's practically pushing adoption as the new easy answer.

There are no easy answers if you are pregnant and you don't want to be. But if I decided I no longer wanted my three year old, it wouldn't be acceptable for me to dismember him and throw him away. Adoption or foster homes would be my only alternative. Is that easy? Who really cares? It's inhumane to kill someone because you no longer "want them."

Viking Kong wrote:
Sandman wrote:
China forces abortion...

Quite ironic but I admit I'm not up-to-speed with politics by any means. My notion was that if you want less freedoms and an over-populated country, China might be for you.

Unfortunatley, the pro-life movement has been (falsely) accused of being motivated by a deep seeded desire to want to control people. For the most part I don't really care what people do. But if they want to kill someone, I do think that should be stopped, for the sake of the victim. I'm not a control freak.

Viking Kong wrote:
This all seems to come down to a technicality which is what I find ridiculous. How many people associate conception with the phrase 'giving new life'. Do women get asked the question 'how does it feel to give life to a child?' after they've just been creamed, or after they've given birth to their baby? Surely our birth is what defines the beginning of our lives, chronology seems to agree at least.

Well, certainly when the baby starts kicking, you know for sure there's someone else inside of you. And of course the life of a new organism begins at conception. We've seen it happen in microscopes. We understand the process. A lot of us learned it in elemetary school science classes. It's not like we're a pre-scientific culture.

Is birth a milestone? Sure. But it's not like my son turned into something fundamentally different when he came through my wife's birth canal. What changed was his location. He was still the same kid he was just before he was born. And he was still the same kid he was right after he was conceived.

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:16 am
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Viking Kong
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Bitchen wrote:
Ryan, it is none of your f'ing business where I post. You are beyond anything that I care about, so do whatever you want and I will always just say, BITE ME to you.


I don't give a damn where you post. I give a damn about you bitchin and complaining about being barraged with political posts. Do you know WHY? Because it's my American RIGHT to give a damn. So shut the fuck up, asstool. Try to stay with me for a moment; LOOK where you're posting. These are political threads, and it just reflects on the idiocy of the poster when they step into those types of threads and complain about being hit by political posts. DAMN you're stupid! Your lack of common sense never ceases to amaze me, friend.

Bitchen wrote:
I don't have all day like some of you.


Bitchen:
Total posts: 96
[0.06% of total / 4.17 posts per day]

Ryan:
Total posts: 5233
[3.48% of total / 5.53 posts per day]

WOW look at the difference! Here in America, 1.36 extra post per day means "posting all day".

Not as long as you stay below the 4.17 mark.

Bitchen wrote:
I am sorry to hear about Sandman's marriage situation, but seriously it isn't good for marriages to be on the internet day and night arguing every point like you keep asking me to do and I don't have time because I am married and I actually like to spend time with my spouse and not argue with stubborn angryFox watching men/boys.


Bitchen:
Total posts: 96
[0.06% of total / 4.17 posts per day]

Sandman:
Total posts: 784
[0.52% of total / 1.65 posts per day]

You were saying?

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:51 am
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Viking Kong
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Bitchen wrote:
Ryan, it is none of your f'ing business where I post.
Well, unfortunately it is. Everywhere we look, there you are! You're making it our business even when we don't want it.
Besides, it's not like we care. :D

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:53 am
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
Ryan, it is none of your f'ing business where I post. You are beyond anything that I care about, so do whatever you want and I will always just say, BITE ME to you.

What a tactful guy! :D

You just have to wonder what type of guy with a doctorate degree is going to pick a username of Bitchen...

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:46 pm
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Godzilla
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Pluripotent Promises
There may be another way to obtain embryonic-like stem cells.

By Patrick Lee
June 21, 2005, 8:20 a.m.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/l ... 210820.asp

Recently the House of Representatives voted, 238-194, to repeal President Bush's restrictions on federal funding for embryo-destructive stem-cell research, and the Senate is expected to move on a similar bill. Courageously, President Bush has stated that he will veto any such measure. What is at stake is nothing less than fundamental respect for human life. Human embryos are often called by proponents of embryo-killing for biomedical research "mere clumps of cells." But in fact, from day one on, human embryos are distinct, individual, complete (though immature) human beings, differing from you or me only in size, degree of development, and location. But such differences do not affect the basic kind of being a thing is; such differences are not morally significant.

Human embryos are not potential human beings, or potential persons. Rather, they are actual human beings, actual human persons, at the embryonic stage of their development. Just as you and I once were adolescents, and before that children and infants, so you and I once were embryos. This assertion is not a religious position the "religious right" attempts to impose on others. Rather, it is the position clearly taught by all the standard embryology and developmental biology texts. You and I came to be at conception. And just as it is wrong to kill one of us now, so it would be wrong to kill one of us at any stage of our development, and wrong to kill any embryo in order to obtain stem cells from him or her.

Human embryo-killing for biomedical research should be illegal, though making it so does not now appear politically possible. But at least taxpayers should not be forced to contribute to such killing through governmental funding of it. This is why the president will be fully justified in vetoing the House's embryonic-stem-cell bill.

When President Bush announced his intention to veto the House's embryonic-stem-cell bill, he spoke of researchers' "exploring different ethical ways of getting the same kind of cells now taken from embryos without violating human life or dignity." Only adult stem cells have shown significant success in therapeutic uses; to date embryonic stem cells have had no therapeutic success. Still, some scientists say that embryonic stem cells (or pluripotent stem cells at a non-mature stage) have distinct advantages for research. But the good news is that respected scientists from varied backgrounds have proposed a way of obtaining such cells without first creating an embryo and then destroying it. The proposal is to directly produce pluripotent stem cells by a process similar to cloning.

Cloning produces a whole though immature embryo of the species cloned. In this process the nucleus of an oocyte (ovum) is removed; the nucleus of somatic cell with its full set of genes is placed within the enucleated oocyte; an electrical stimulus is provided which somehow knits them together; and what is produced (if the cloning process is a success) is a one-celled embryo of the same species as the somatic cell. This embryo then begins to mature just as a normally produced embryo — so, if humans are cloned this process will immediately produce a distinct human being.

By contrast, a stem cell — that is, a pluripotent cell, one that is relatively undifferentiated, and able to generate many, but not all, more specialized cells — is not a complete organism but is structurally and functionally a part. The proposed process, called Oocyte Assisted Reprogramming (OAR), which is a specific form of Altered Nuclear Transfer (ANT), will directly produce a stem cell. (Dr. Markus Grompe and Robert P. George wrote about this in Monday's Wall Street Journal.)

The nucleus of a somatic cell will be joined to an enucleated oocyte (as in cloning), but before that, certain genes in the oocyte will be activated, genes that are not normally activated until much later in embryogenesis, at a stage in which the cells have become specialized. The effect of activating (expressing) these genes will be to ensure that the product of the fusion of the somatic cell's nucleus with the enucleated (and altered) oocyte will be, not an embryo, but a pluripotent cell.

It is a matter of principle that medical progress does not justify any and all means. It is morally abhorrent to dismember living human individuals, no matter what size or degree of development, as a means toward biomedical research or possible therapeutic gains. The end does not justify the means. But here it appears that there may be other equally effective, but ethically upright, means to those same ends. It seems that there will be a way of obtaining embryonic-like stem cells without killing human embryos.

— Patrick Lee is a professor of philosophy at Franciscan University of Steubenville.

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:38 pm
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God Of The Sun
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Ryan wrote:
Bitchen wrote:
Ryan, it is none of your f'ing business where I post. You are beyond anything that I care about, so do whatever you want and I will always just say, BITE ME to you.


I don't give a damn where you post. I give a damn about you bitchin and complaining about being barraged with political posts. Do you know WHY? Because it's my American RIGHT to give a damn. So shut the fuck up, asstool. Try to stay with me for a moment; LOOK where you're posting. These are political threads, and it just reflects on the idiocy of the poster when they step into those types of threads and complain about being hit by political posts. DAMN you're stupid! Your lack of common sense never ceases to amaze me, friend.

Bitchen wrote:
I don't have all day like some of you.


Bitchen:
Total posts: 96
[0.06% of total / 4.17 posts per day]

Ryan:
Total posts: 5233
[3.48% of total / 5.53 posts per day]

WOW look at the difference! Here in America, 1.36 extra post per day means "posting all day".

Not as long as you stay below the 4.17 mark.

Bitchen wrote:
I am sorry to hear about Sandman's marriage situation, but seriously it isn't good for marriages to be on the internet day and night arguing every point like you keep asking me to do and I don't have time because I am married and I actually like to spend time with my spouse and not argue with stubborn angryFox watching men/boys.


Bitchen:
Total posts: 96
[0.06% of total / 4.17 posts per day]

Sandman:
Total posts: 784
[0.52% of total / 1.65 posts per day]

You were saying?



AHAHAHAHAA!


Image

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Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:54 am
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Motorman
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The way you view things seems to always be screwed when it is about me. I have posted many small notes to the group. Many of them are short like this one, so it looks like a lot. But, Sandman mostly and the other three nutcases post a lot, but they post the hugest longest posts that must take SOOOOO long to write. These kind of posts I do take less than 5 minutes. There is a difference, Nutcase!

You say wherever you are, I am there. Again, an exaggeration! I really don't post on every topic, but YES, I do answer to the ones where there is a rebuttal to my posts. You are the idiots if you think otherwise.

I used the name Bitchen, Dorkface, because it is a 80s term and I am from the 80s time period. It was a joke. What? I am a doctor and I have to have a name like Sir or something medical? I thought Bitchen was funny, SPONGEBOB and PICTURE OF AN ESTRANGED SPOUSE. We are supposed to take you guys seriously?

You run out of real comments and you resort to picking on the name? LAME!

:roll:

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Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:25 am
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Viking Kong
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Bitchen wrote:
You say wherever you are, I am there. Again, an exaggeration! I really don't post on every topic, but YES, I do answer to the ones where there is a rebuttal to my posts. You are the idiots if you think otherwise.


Incidently, you never seem to respond to the rebuttals. :lol:

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Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:00 am
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Viking Kong
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Bitchen wrote:
The way you view things seems to always be screwed when it is about me.:
Yeah, we know. Facts suck, don't they? :roll:
Bitchen wrote:
What? I am a doctor and I have to have a name like Sir or something medical?
Remind me not to get sick in the "valley, dude."

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Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:31 am
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
The way you view things seems to always be screwed
...
the other three nutcases
...
Nutcase!
...
You are the idiots
...
Dorkface
...
PICTURE OF AN ESTRANGED SPOUSE
...
You run out of real comments


I see his point. We are so rude.

He's so tactful.

_________________
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:32 pm
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Motorman

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Ad hominems are the mark of someone unable to rebut a point...


Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:27 pm
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God Of The Sun
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Sandman wrote:
Bitchen wrote:
The way you view things seems to always be screwed
...
the other three nutcases
...
Nutcase!
...
You are the idiots
...
Dorkface
...
PICTURE OF AN ESTRANGED SPOUSE
...
You run out of real comments


I see his point. We are so rude.

He's so tactful.


indeed :lol:

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Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:50 pm
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Motorman
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Sorry, truth ain't always pretty.

And, doctors have real lives and don't have to be professional on the web talking to Dorfmans.

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Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:37 am
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God Of The Sun
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Bitchen wrote:
Sorry, truth ain't always pretty.

And, doctors have real lives and don't have to be professional on the web talking to Dorfmans.


wow I almost gaged

oh btw...your not the only doc on here...dorfman

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Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:45 am
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Viking Kong
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Emblazed wrote:
Bitchen wrote:
Sorry, truth ain't always pretty.

And, doctors have real lives and don't have to be professional on the web talking to Dorfmans.


wow I almost gaged

oh btw...your not the only doc on here...dorfman


If I remember correctly the other doc on here mopped the floor with him. Oh yeah. How does that floor cleaner taste, Bitchen?

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Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:03 am
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God Of The Sun
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Ryan wrote:
Emblazed wrote:
Bitchen wrote:
Sorry, truth ain't always pretty.

And, doctors have real lives and don't have to be professional on the web talking to Dorfmans.


wow I almost gaged

oh btw...your not the only doc on here...dorfman


If I remember correctly the other doc on here mopped the floor with him. Oh yeah. How does that floor cleaner taste, Bitchen?


*cuts off leg*

"thats nothing but a flesh wound!" :lol:

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Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:03 am
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