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 A Clump of Condor Cells 
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Viking Kong
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Bitchen wrote:
God you two don't get it! The eggs are being trashed by the thousands anyway! DUH! And it is hard not to be rude to you, you have mush for brains and are as stubborn as dumb asses (in the donkey sense of course).


I don't recall ever saying that I hold the same beliefs as the anti-embryonic stem cell research crowd. Did I ever say that? Hmm... nope, not seeing it.

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Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:02 pm
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Viking Kong

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Sam wrote:
THATS ALOT OF FUCKING PISS.


:lol:


Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:07 pm
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Motorman
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Addressing your points which are lame are a waste of TIME and breathing.

You can't say that making lampshades out of alive Jews is the same. No lampshade saved a life for one. And the Jews were alive and living a life already. Now, these fertilized eggs, not even fetuses or anything, are being VOLUNTARILY made and frozen by wanna be mothers. They don't use them, they get trashed. What do you suppose we do with thousands and thousands of frozen eggs? Those parents have to right to use them or discard them. That is the law. So, what I am saying is instead of trashing them, they can save lives. You can't compare that to using the skin of a live human just to make a material object like a lamp. You are twisted.

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Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:08 pm
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
Addressing your points which are lame are a waste of TIME and breathing.

You're so tactful. :D

Bitchen wrote:
You can't say that making lampshades out of alive Jews is the same. No lampshade saved a life for one.
So if a live organ donor can save a life, we Cannibalize him? And just as long as it's not a Jew, we're supposed to look the other way? The preborn are both alive and human.

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Last edited by Sandman on Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:52 pm
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Motorman

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I just don't get it. I believe that everyone is now clear that many pro-lifers believe that a fertilized egg is human and should be protected with all the legal rights as any other human. To them, abortion and disposal of frozen embryos is murder. I can;t imagine that there's any doubt about this by anyone after 14 pages of it being articulated...
Why, then, is there surprise when the pro-life people object to embryonic cells being used in medicine? The point is that these people think the embryos are people. They're just as opposed to parts of these people being used for medicine as they are about the unused embryos being discarded. Both of these are seen as murder. Why do you express surprise to see that the pro-life people wouldn;t endorse one form of murder over another? They're both abhorrent to these people. This shouldn't be a difficult concept, no matter how strenuously you disagree with their characterization of the 'personhood' of the embryos.


Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:50 pm
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Motorman
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Agreed Splatter. But if he can express his opinion, so can I. This is why America is so great. He can believe what he wants, and he can do what he wants, as long as he doesn't impede what others want.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:11 am
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Godzilla
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splatter wrote:
I just don't get it. I believe that everyone is now clear that many pro-lifers believe that a fertilized egg is human and should be protected with all the legal rights as any other human. To them, abortion and disposal of frozen embryos is murder. I can;t imagine that there's any doubt about this by anyone after 14 pages of it being articulated...
Why, then, is there surprise when the pro-life people object to embryonic cells being used in medicine? The point is that these people think the embryos are people. They're just as opposed to parts of these people being used for medicine as they are about the unused embryos being discarded. Both of these are seen as murder. Why do you express surprise to see that the pro-life people wouldn;t endorse one form of murder over another? They're both abhorrent to these people. This shouldn't be a difficult concept, no matter how strenuously you disagree with their characterization of the 'personhood' of the embryos.

I agree with this. Our postion is consistent. Some may disagree with the position. But it seems self-evident that a line has to be drawn somewhere during the pregnancy. I just know of no reason to conclude there is some time during a human being's lifespan before which he or she has rights. To conclude such, it seems to me one is playing God. We should not be going there.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:13 am
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
Agreed Splatter. But if he can express his opinion, so can I. This is why America is so great. He can believe what he wants, and he can do what he wants, as long as he doesn't impede what others want.

We can believe and do anything we want as long as it doesn't impede what others want?? Huh? Our beliefs and actions can't impede anyone's wants?? Since when? I want you to be pro-life. Does that mean you'd better not express something that will impede you from being pro-life?

Aside from that, and while I agree with your primary point, I don't think he was challenging the legitimacy of expressing your opinion. I think he was challenging the quality of a specific part of your opinion (namely, acting as if our oppostion to lethal embryonic research was odd, considering our beliefs concerning the rights of preborn humans). No one is trying to censor you.

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Last edited by Sandman on Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:26 am
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Viking Kong
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Bitchen I think you took Splatter's point wrong.

You act surprised that the pro-life crowd could be anti-embryonic stem cell research. Actually, you kept putting words in our mouth, claiming that we said "embryonic stem cells are from fetuses" but I explained that I only said that once, and it was a mistake. I thoroughly explained pro-life's opposition to embyronic stem cell research to you in my last post, but like all of my other points, you must have ignored it.

But maybe you'll listen to Sandman.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:38 pm
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Godzilla
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Ryan wrote:
But maybe you'll listen to Sandman.


You've got to be kidding! :lol:

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:25 pm
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Godzilla
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splatter wrote:
To them, abortion and disposal of frozen embryos is murder.


If that's the case can't embryos be extracted, frozen, and stored somewhere at the pro-lifers' expense so they'll keep quiet. Then they don't have to worry about the problems their beliefs cause them, because that's so much harder to deal with than the problems people facing abortion have to deal with, I'm sure.

I'm not doubting that many people abuse the whole 'process' of abortion, and perhaps stricter rules/laws should be enforced because of this. That doesn't go to say it should be outlawed completely.

Abortion is an ugly thing, but the people who do it know it's the only way they aren't to fuck up their lives. It's laughable to think that adoption for all the thousands of unwanted children is by any means an alternative solution, or indeed a solution at all.

If there was a happy alternative, don't you think people would opt for that? There's nothing easy about abortion. Relinquishing people of their right, or freedom should I say, to choose how many children they have is going to fuck up a hell of a lot more lives than the "spiritual" conflicts of these uncomprehending idealists. If you're against abortion, don't go about having it. Otherwise you might as well be living in China, for more reasons than one.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:40 pm
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I have to know...WHO is Sandmans' avatar.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:47 pm
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Motorman

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Quote:
If you're against abortion, don't go about having it.


Haven't we been over this already?
In the same vein, if you're against slavery, don't own slaves.
If you're against murder, don't murder anyone.
If you're against rape, don't be a rapist.

Get it? It's kind of missing the point, isn't it?


Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:57 pm
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Motorman
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That avatar is Sandman's long suffering wife.

I agree with Viking and Splatter and don't agree with Ryan and Sandman. So, there you go. America is beautiful. Now I am sick of discussing such controversial stuff too. So, perhaps we should agree to disagree and move on.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:03 am
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Godzilla
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Viking Kong wrote:
If that's the case can't embryos be extracted, frozen, and stored somewhere at the pro-lifers' expense so they'll keep quiet.
Interesting thought. But my point is, it isn't ethically acceptability to be creating "extra" human beings with the intention or likelihood of eventually killing them. No one, pro-lifers included, have any sort of obligation of keeping the "extra" human beings someone else created. The moral obligation lies in the hands of the creators.

Viking Kong wrote:
Then they don't have to worry about the problems their beliefs cause them
So are you saying a commitment to human rights is a belief that causes problems?

Viking Kong wrote:
I'm not doubting that many people abuse the whole 'process' of abortion, and perhaps stricter rules/laws should be enforced because of this. That doesn't go to say it should be outlawed completely.
Let's try that with another word:

"I'm not doubting that many people abuse the whole 'process' of child abuse, and perhaps stricter rules/laws should be enforced because of this. That doesn't go to say it should be outlawed completely."

Sounds kind of odd, doesn't it? If you don't like inserting the word child abuse, pick any other human rights violation you like. In any case, any such statement misses the mark because it doesn't take into account the victims of such abuses.

Viking Kong wrote:
Abortion is an ugly thing
What's ugly about it? Is it morally more significant than getting a tooth or a cyst removed? If so, why?

Viking Kong wrote:
but the people who do it know it's the only way they aren't to fuck up their lives.
Actually, abortion screws up the lives of many women to a high degree emotionally. Plus, it kind of puts a damper on the life of the child being killed.

Viking Kong wrote:
It's laughable to think that adoption for all the thousands of unwanted children is by any means an alternative solution, or indeed a solution at all.
I don't find this self-evident. What do you find laughable about it?

Viking Kong wrote:
If there was a happy alternative, don't you think people would opt for that?
There is no easy solution to being pregnant when you don't want to be (or when your boyfriend or parents don't want you to be). An easy solution is of out of the question. But you can opt for an ethical and emotionally healthy solution. Like I said earlier, adoption respects the life of the child, and in the process, builds self esteem and self-respect. Abortion does not do that. Abortion is a selfish decision, usually imposed upon women by loved ones who aren't supportive. I suspect that's partly why a higher percentage of men are pro-choice than women. (That, and men are beaten down if they express pro-life sentiments.)

Viking Kong wrote:
There's nothing easy about abortion.
Why? If it is morally acceptable, what isn't easy about it? What other surgery is described this way?

Viking Kong wrote:
Relinquishing people of their right, or freedom should I say, to choose how many children they have is going to fuck up a hell of a lot more lives than the "spiritual" conflicts of these uncomprehending idealists.
No one forces parenthood on anyone. If you don't want to care for and raise your child, there are avenues available to allow someone else to do it. So that's a false issue.

Viking Kong wrote:
If you're against abortion, don't go about having it.
It's also instructive to substitute other human rights abuses into this sentence:

If you're against slavery, don't have a slave.
If you're against rape, don't rape anyone.
If you're against child abuse, don't abuse children.
If you're against police brutality, don't become a police officer and be brutal.
You get the idea.

If abortion is a human rights abuse, then it's not acceptable to stand by and grant other people the choice to do it.

The thing with abortion is that the victims have no voice except those of us who made it out who have the courage to speak up on their behalf (and subject themselves to insults and accusations).

Viking Kong wrote:
Otherwise you might as well be living in China, for more reasons than one.
China forces abortion. That's obviously not something I can get behind.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:16 am
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
That avatar is Sandman's long suffering wife.

Unfortunately, this is more true than you know. Yes Ken, it's my wife. Right now our marriage is on the rocks. I'm fully committed and doing all I can to address issues on my side of the equation, but she's very bitter and disillusioned. I just became aware of this a couple months ago. I treasure her and hope I can again regain her trust be a blessing to her, but it's not looking real good at the moment.

But I should add, she's just as against abortion as I am.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:22 am
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Godzilla
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Sandman wrote:
Interesting thought. But my point is, it isn't ethically acceptability....

Sorry, I never intended for that to be taken seriously.

Sandman wrote:
So are you saying a commitment to human rights is a belief that causes problems?.

That may have been slightly ambiguous. What I meant is that "pro-lifers" have to put up with their moral outrage to abortion, whereas people who have abortions face much greater, and dare I say real, problems. Being denied such an option may, on the one hand, allow "pro-lifers" to sleep easy at night having successfully protested against the latest cause, whereas the prevention of a single abortion could ruin the lives of an entire family. There is also the possibility of this all-important 'embryo' developing into an unloved, unhappy person.

Sandman wrote:
Let's try that with another word: ...

Yes, that does sound quite odd, but that's simply an opinion, so I'd prefer to leave it as it was.

Sandman wrote:
What's ugly about it? Is it morally more significant than getting a tooth or a cyst removed? If so, why?

Sandman wrote:
Actually, abortion screws up the lives of many women to a high degree emotionally. Plus...

I don't know how you can compare abortion to having a tooth removed in one point and in the very next say it screws up lives. None of the people I know who have had their teeth removed have seen their lives fucked up beyond repair because of it.

Sandman wrote:
I don't find this self-evident. What do you find laughable about it?

Well my main objection to adoption in this context is simply the scale of it. In order for it to work, there would need to be an equilibrium between the number of people who put their children up for adoption, i.e. the number of would-be abortions, and the number of people who are unable to have children and in addition are willing to adopt. Personally, I don't see that happeneing.

Sandman wrote:
Why? If it is morally acceptable, what isn't easy about it? What other surgery is described this way?

Sorry but having any major surgery is by no means easy at all. Part of what makes abortion ugly is those involved having to deal with the moral pressures which I think are exaggerated.

Sandman wrote:
No one forces parenthood on anyone. If you don't want to care for and raise your child, there are avenues...

I think that's practically pushing adoption as the new easy answer.

Sandman wrote:
China forces abortion...

Quite ironic but I admit I'm not up-to-speed with politics by any means. My notion was that if you want less freedoms and an over-populated country, China might be for you.

This all seems to come down to a technicality which is what I find ridiculous. How many people associate conception with the phrase 'giving new life'. Do women get asked the question 'how does it feel to give life to a child?' after they've just been creamed, or after they've given birth to their baby? Surely our birth is what defines the beginning of our lives, chronology seems to agree at least.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:32 am
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After reading all of these posts the only thing I can say is that I am glad my parents saw me as a new life and not just a clump of cells.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:40 am
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Viking Kong
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Viking Kong wrote:
Abortion is an ugly thing, but the people who do it know it's the only way they aren't to fuck up their lives. It's laughable to think that adoption for all the thousands of unwanted children is by any means an alternative solution, or indeed a solution at all.


For the child, adoption is the ONLY solution. That is who the pro-lifers lobby for.

Bitchen wrote:
That avatar is Sandman's long suffering wife.

I agree with Viking and Splatter and don't agree with Ryan and Sandman. So, there you go. America is beautiful. Now I am sick of discussing such controversial stuff too. So, perhaps we should agree to disagree and move on.


As soon as you post in the non-political threads, we'll stop discussing politics with you, because it seems that is what you want.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:09 am
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Godzilla
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Ryan wrote:
For the child, adoption is the ONLY solution. That is who the pro-lifers lobby for.


Child as in the 'clump of cells' that are in question or a new born baby? Maybe you should post a dictionary entry for child just so we're sure :roll:

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:29 am
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