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 A Clump of Condor Cells 
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God Of The Sun

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:38 am
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Well. Life is living things. Aren't unborn babies living things?

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:00 am
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Godzilla
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Very mature, Bitchen. Group hug! :hug:

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:48 am
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
I am curious, Sandman, Ryan......when was the last time you practiced what you preached and got out there and offered to babysit and buy food and clothes for babies born to single mothers who wanted to abort but changed their minds?

Well, for the past 15 years I have donated about $600 a year to place in Long Beach that gives single mothers a place to live for as long as they need. They help them get back on their feet with job training and such. I've also done volunteer work for them. And I've also supported other organizations that help women with crisis pregancies. And that includes follow-up help after the baby is born.

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Last edited by Sandman on Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:34 pm
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
I have been out of the posts for awhile due to an ill family member, but I am very interested in how there have been some people who have had time to point out simple biology and true facts like GTRMAN.

What biological facts did GTRMAN point out??

Bitchen wrote:
He makes good points. I think because of how annoying people like Oli, Rich and Ryan are, they pushed me to get angry and a lot of people in here have seen me that way.

As others have pointed out, your insults began out of the gate. You certainly have a condescending attitude toward "the teenagers" on this forum (although I'm 41).

Bitchen wrote:
Sandman has been name calling all through this thread. Wimp, uneducated, etc.

The only reason I resorted to that was GTRMAN refused to make his case, refused to acknowledge fundamental facts of biology, and at the same time accused me of skirting issues. That's pretty bullying and insulting itself.

Bitchen wrote:
It has been very rude.

No one has said anything your avatar hasn't said.

Bitchen wrote:
Being a jew myself, I am appalled that you, Sandman, would equate abortion with Nazi Germany. My grandmother lost 12 brothers and sisters who were alive and she actually knew their names and played with them. They were all gassed. To equate an unborn fetus to the horrific loss of actually ALIVE humans is wrong. You see it as a holocaust of some sort, fine, go ahead, but don't equate it to the horror that my grandmother faced when she watched her family be hauled off and suffocated.

I'm sorry, Bitchen, but these people being killing in abortion clinics are just as alive and human as your relatives, and their murder is just as real. Is there just as much torture and emotional distress involved? For the most part, no. But it's still systematic murder based on a philosophy that de-hunaizes some members of the human family. I understand that since you don't think abortion is a human rights violation, you're going to be offended by the comparison. But my intention is not to degrade the horror of the Holocaust. By no means! I am probably more horrified than most by the crimes the German nation committed against the nations of the world during WWII. In fact, some of my life heros are people like Corrie Ten Boom and Dietrich Bonhoeffer who stood up for the Jews and paid dearly for it. But to ignore the injustices in our own time does no honor to their legacies.

Bitchen wrote:
The anti choice people

Do you want me to call you "anti-life"??

Bitchen wrote:
No woman should be enslaved to being a husk for making a baby against her wishes.

Your perspective of parenthood is "interesting."

Bitchen wrote:
And that may be horrific, but to take away her choice is more horrific to the life that exists--the woman's.

If you argument hinges on the presumption that no life exists inside the womb, then your argument fails. If there wasn't a life, why would anyone want to kill and remove it? Why would it be growing? Why would it, given time, develop into a human adult? Why would it, in half the case, have a penis? Like I've said a couple of times, can a woman have a penis and male chromosomes?

Bitchen wrote:
Also, about the above quote: You are wrong again Ryan, not that you will ever admit you are wrong, but stem cells are not just from aborted fetuses, they are mostly from the creation of fertilized eggs that are frozen for fertility clinic purposes. And when the woman doesn't need them anymore, the clinics can use them for science, but because the anti choicers are not all fully educated on this like GW,


When you write things like this, yet denounce me for calling someone "uneducated," how is it you're not being a hypocrite?

Bitchen wrote:
they think it is only aborted fetuses and they vote down stem cell research....but the fact is that the clinic is going to just throw the fertilized egg away anyway

That's like saying, "If they don't hold blacks as slaves, they're just going to lynch them. So they might as well hold them as slaves." Hey, I've got a novel idea: How about we stop treating human beings as a disposable commodity? Then we won't be able to argue that cannibalizing them is okay. Remember how the Nazis used the skin of Jews as lampshades? Same deal.

Bitchen wrote:
so why not use it to help people who have Parkinson’s and other diseases, the alive people who need help?

For the same reason we only use dead people as organ donors.

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Last edited by Sandman on Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:19 pm
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
I also know that I work with many who have the baby after some anti choicers got to them. Those same people who are there screaming, "don't murder your baby" never come back and leave the poor woman alone and broke to raise their baby themselves.

You know, even though pro-lifers are actually very generous in helping women in such situations, the point could be made that they actually don't have a moral obligation to help. What if the issue was child abuse? Could one be faulted for insisting that parents not abuse their children, but was unwilling to raise those children himself or provide financial support for their family? Of course not.

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:29 pm
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
splatter wrote:
The 'if you don't like abortions, don't have one' line misses the point entirely. It's akin to saying 'if you're against murder, don't kill anyone'.

True, but that is only if you see abortion of an embryo as murder. I don't. Many don't. It can be argued forever, but many pro choicers will never be convinced otherwise. Also, sometimes when you are young, you see things as black or white. There are gray areas in life.

Look, either it's murder or it isn't. If you follow where the facts lead and conclude that it's murder, then how is it not going to be "black and white"? A pro-lifer would hardly be consistent if they declared it to be murder, but didn't act like it was murder.

Bitchen wrote:
I work with youth, many of them cannot afford to have a baby. They do abort in the early stages only. I cannot judge them. That is not for me to do. It is their choice and they have to live with their decision, not me.

Their dead child also has to "live" with their decision. Maybe you could steer them in the direction of the much more emotionally healthy, self-sacrificial and loving decision of giving their baby up for adoption. It will build character, self esteem and self respect. The choice to abort does none of that. I know friends of mine who are still haunted with that choice to abort years and decades later.

The dirty little secret is that few women abort because they really in their heart of hearts want to. Most do so because those around them refuse to support them through their time of crisis and pressure them into doing it, telling them "it's the right thing to do." Of all the women I know who have had abortions, without exception, they've were pressured into it by either their boyfriends, husbands, their parents, or abortion clinic "counselors" (a.k.a. sales persons).

Bitchen wrote:
I also have worked with women who were religious, had their babies and resented them and wound up badly abusing or neglecting these kids. These kids' lives are horrific.

Contrary to your antidotal experience, studies have shown that the vast majority of children who suffer from child abuse are actually children that were very "wanted" before birth. These parents are more likely to have higher expectations of their children.

But you don’t solve child abuse by killing the child. You solve child abuse by protecting the child. You take the child away from the parent if necessary. You don’t encourage the parent to just kill the child early so they won’t abuse it.

Bitchen wrote:
I don't see too many just as upset about that as they are of the removal of an embryo.

A lot of that is because society doesn't respect those feelings, so they're often times kept secret. And often times they don't surface until years later. This is the truth of the matter that comes out when they eventually seek post-abortion counseling -- something pro-life groups, not pro-choice groups, provide. The pro-choice groups say, "Celebrate your choice! You have nothing to regret." Basically, they're in denial. Like you say, they just won't be convinced.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:51 pm
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Motorman
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So sick of your tit for tat b.s. Look, you call people uneducated and you think that is ok, so I resented in the past you saying that to me. I think Gtrman is way more logical than you are. Saying that alive humans are the same as the unborn is disgusting to me. You said that my saying enslaving women to have babies shows something wrong with my idea of parenting? Listen, having sex and pushing out a baby has nothing to do with parents. There is a difference between a mother and a MOMMY. Not all baby makers are actually loving caring parents. I know, because I have met parents who hate their babies, but had them anyway and those kids have had horrific things done to them, including cigarette burns in their skin. I am not going to waste my time going over every fact that you point out about every fact I point out. It is POINTLESS! You have your mind made up and you can overwrite and spend all of your time on the internet writing and writing and it still doesn't mean that your words are true or they mean a thing. ANd $600 to help mothers? Sorry, but that is a piss in the ocean.

And my avatar was orignally chosen as a funny, irreverent statement about love, it actually had nothing to do with my flipping people off. I know you want to view it that way. So, shut up about it already. I am sick of looking at your girlfriend, but I haven't said a word til now.

By the way, I guess Nancy Reagan is a baby killer too. Funny how you conservative right wingers change your mind when someone YOU love is affected. Here is a part of an article I pulled off the net today about her.

Bad that she never spoke up before Ronny got Alzheimer's, but good for her to speak up now to save others from the likes of people like you.

WASHINGTON (June 17) - Nancy Reagan is poised for a quiet entrance into the Senate's embryonic stem cell debate in much the same role she played during the fierce fight in the House, calling up wavering lawmakers to help win passage of legislation in the shadow of President Bush's veto threat.

''This is a very important issue to her and I know she remains committed to the cause and will do what she can at the right time,'' her spokeswoman, Joanne Drake, said in an interview Thursday.

AND THIS IS ALSO FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE ARTICLE:

Supporters of the stem cell bill say embryonic research carries great promise in the search for cures for diseases that afflict millions of Americans, including diabetes, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

Opponents say taxpayers should not be forced to foot the bill for research that destroys the days-old fertilized embryos from which the stem cells are extracted. Instead, many of them support federally funded research on other kinds of stem cells, such as those derived from umbilical cord blood and adults.

SEE? FERTILIZED EMBRYOS, wasted and destroyed could be used to save people. You are so blinkered Sandman. You have SOME facts and you do overkill with them, but you are missing so much more. I haven't even heard you yet admit you screwed up about what they use for stem cell research.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:02 pm
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
I am sick of looking at your girlfriend, but I haven't said a word til now.

She's my wife, you prick.

Bitchen wrote:
I haven't even heard you yet admit you screwed up about what they use for stem cell research.

What did I mess up?

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:39 pm
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Viking Kong
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Bitchen wrote:
No woman should be enslaved to being a husk for making a baby against her wishes. And that may be horrific, but to take away her choice is more horrific to the life that exists--the woman's.


Oh you're absolutely right. Embryos and fetuses are "pre-existence" and "pre-life". :roll:

Bitchen wrote:
Ryan wrote:
Anti-choicers (the pro-responsibility crowd) are pissed about stem cell research because it threatens the development of a human being. Humans would be aborted for science - sacrificed for scientific research. Pro-lifers can't be pro-embryonic stem cell research because it would require aborting a fetus.

Also, about the above quote: You are wrong again Ryan, not that you will ever admit you are wrong, but stem cells are not just from aborted fetuses, they are mostly from the creation of fertilized eggs that are frozen for fertility clinic purposes.


It looks like I got one word wrong - "fetus". But I think you missed my point.

First off, it was an explaination to why pro-lifers disagree with embryonic stem cell research. Secondly, I implied that the pro-life side is against embryonic stem-cell research because it requires destroying human life for science. So you think eggs that were extracted for scientific purposes are not humans? The pro-life side would beg to differ - and that is why they are against such research. As long as the human life exists to be destroyed, my quote remains truthful.

Watch:

"Anti-choicers (the pro-responsibility crowd) are pissed about stem cell research because it threatens the development of a human being. Humans would be aborted for science - sacrificed for scientific research. Pro-lifers can't be pro-embryonic stem cell research because it would require aborting a [b]human life[b]."

Booyah.

My point stands. And I win again. :)

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:21 pm
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Godzilla
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Its pretty logical really.

A human develops in the womb. Therefore it should have human rights. Therefore, to abort it, is to murder it.

What the fuck could be more logical than that?

How the hell could you call a developing baby anything other than human? Thats like me, picking up a small ORANGE, and calling it a BANANA. It might be small, but its still a fucking ORANGE.


Once again Bitchen you've lost the plot. You're a condescending cocksmoker.
You yammer on like your are always right, and then you shove everyones perfectly good arguements back in their faces with a pile of shit for a retort and THEN, you act like your shit don't stink when your weak ass arguement gets ripped to pieces.

For example: "ANd $600 to help mothers? Sorry, but that is a piss in the ocean." -Bitchen.

Oh, thats nice. Sandman gives $600 to help these single mothers every year and you shit on him because you think you're Mother fucking Teresa. You SUCK DICK.


Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:10 pm
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Godzilla
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Right, let's get this straight, no one thinks that embryos aren't human, because they have human DNA, therefore they are human, but that does not mean that an embryo is a human. Case in point, a blastocyst is a bunch of cells, identical to those in an arm or leg or whatever, this does not mean that the cells in my arms or legs are humans, even though they are human cells. The reason anti-choicers are are so het up about abortion is because these cells can grow into a human, and rightly so, but it is only their opinion that the abortion of these cells is murder. Both sides are guilty of taking their opinion as fact, and both sides are equally hypocritical when it comes to insulting other boardmembers who disagree with them. Case in point -

axe_man_oli wrote:
[To Bitchen] You're a condescending cocksmoker.


If their was ever a building that stood for not using hypocritical nonsense to criticise someone, then that statement would be the plane that crashed into it.

I will end with a Haiku:

This fight is pointless
Everyone shut the fuck up
And end it all now

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:59 pm
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Speed_Demon, everything you said was OK until you compared a blastocyst to an arm or a leg. I just don't like to hear such a comparison. It's kind of self-degenerating to the pro-choice cause as it shows a completele lack of care for science.

Becasue, even from the moment of conception, the fertilized egg can be scientifically recognized as a seperate being, possessing a set of genetic code that is completely unique to itself. That is only reiterated when it starts forming its own organs at 16 days, when it starts feeling pain at 16 weeks, and when it starts driving down I-95 at 16 years.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:29 pm
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Motorman

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If a blastocyst is equivalent to any other cell, then how is a fetus different from, say, a clump of undifferentiated cells? Is a fully developed baby, milliseconds away from passing through the birth canal, no different from any other accretion of cells?


Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:48 am
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Motorman
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Bitchen wrote:
ANd $600 to help mothers? Sorry, but that is a piss in the ocean.


That's just rediculous, first of all how is sandmans financial situation any of your business or right to comment on? second of all, it may be a small amount, but thats why they encourage EVERYBODY TO DONATE, maybe if YOU also donated it would be two pisses in the ocean, add in millions of people around the country, THATS ALOT OF FUCKING PISS. not everyone can just shell out a 2 million dollar grant every now and then, the 600 dollar pisses are what make up the ocean, you complete jackass.


Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:03 pm
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Godzilla
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Not that it's anybody's business, but my family donates around $9,000 a year to charities (about 20 times more than Al Gore's family). And the home for single mothers and their children isn't the only one we donate to that helps pregnant women and poor children. And let's not forget that a lot of our taxes go to help the poor (and unfortunately, to "terminate" innocent children).

Sam is right, if a lot of people each give a little, a lot can then get done. Pro-lifers tend to be very generous with their time and money to help others.

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Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:43 pm
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Motorman
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Post this is the point
AGAIN you didn't read what I wrote. STEM CELL IS not from aborted fetuses. The new bill that is being drawn up allows ONLY the use of fertilized frozen eggs that are unused by the owners of them and with permission of the donators, they are used to test with INSTEAD of what the lab intends to do otherwise, they just throw them away. What a waste not to learn from them and help people with disease, but just throw them away. The anti choicers don't get that part. They are so indoctrinated by pro life propaganda and Fox News, that they think it is just aborted fetuses. Ignorance is bliss to them, I suppose.

You wanted facts, Ryan...there you go.

Speaking if ignorant, Pres. Bush has threatened to oppose a bipartisan bill on stem cell, where his own Republicans and Nancy Reagan want it to pass. He might use his first veto on it. This bill has the provisions that it must be for scientific purpose, that none of the fertilized eggs are bought, and that the only thing used are eggs that are about to be discarded into trash. Yet, without undestanding that these thousands of eggs every year are trashed anyway, Bush did agree that he would sign the bill if it said Aug. 9, 2001 at 9:01 pm as the cutoff for the use of those eggs and anything after is not used. So, eggs at 9:02pm are bad? This makes no sense. Actually, it shows how confused Bush is. To say it is ok to use the fertilized eggs at all prior to a certain date and then not after is confusing. Either you can use them or not. So, this is just not logical and a waste.

Other countries like Korea are beating us in the field of medicine in fighting diabetes and other illnesses. We will be left out in the cold because of our backward thinking and having so many people brainwashed by the confused Christian right. The U.S. used to be ahead in the field of science, but Bush and you guys don't want it to grow based on erroneous information about aborted fetuses.

Now, there are your facts, Sandman and Ryan, that you always crave. Those are the facts Sandman.

Your statements regarding stem cell thus far have been wrong.

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Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:53 am
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Bitchen wrote:
AGAIN you didn't read what I wrote. STEM CELL IS not from aborted fetuses. The new bill that is being drawn up allows ONLY the use of fertilized frozen eggs that are unused by the owners of them and with permission of the donators, they are used to test with INSTEAD of what the lab intends to do otherwise, they just throw them away. What a waste not to learn from them and help people with disease, but just throw them away. The anti choicers don't get that part. They are so indoctrinated by pro life propaganda and Fox News, that they think it is just aborted fetuses. Ignorance is bliss to them, I suppose.

You wanted facts, Ryan...there you go.


No one ever held that stem cells are taken from an aborted fetus. I slipped up and said that once, but after I saw it again I admitted the mistake. But it has LITTLE TO DO WITH THE STATEMENT. I'll go thru this very slowly for you so you can understand.

Speed_Demon said this:

Speed_DemonX wrote:
Which is why anti-choicers are so pissed about stem cell research.


And I responded with this:

Ryan wrote:
Anti-choicers (the pro-responsibility crowd) are pissed about stem cell research because it threatens the development of a human being. Humans would be aborted for science - sacrificed for scientific research. Pro-lifers can't be pro-embryonic stem cell research because it would require aborting a fetus.


I slipped up on the word "fetus" but my point stays the same... which means that even if I put "fertilized egg" in place of "fetus" the post would mean the same thing. So much for your "ace in the hole".

Here are the facts.

- pro-lifers believe that a fertilized egg is a human being
- pro-choicers believe that a fertilized egg is not a human being
- extracting embryonic stem cells requires destroying a fertilized egg
- pro-lifers believe that a destroyed fertilized egg is a destroyed human being

Therefore, "anti-choicers" are pissed at stem-cell research because it requires destroying a human being. The facts that you post, the ones that say scientists used isolated fertilized eggs, only prove that. I find it funny that your facts deconstruct your own claims.

Bitchen wrote:
Your statements regarding stem cell thus far have been wrong.


Which ones? It seems like you're only sitting here putting words in our mouths, and then saying "Oh, you see! That's wrong!" And I retracted that statement about stem cells coming from "aborted fetuses" so you're going to have to find new grounds to base your claims.

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Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:39 am
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Godzilla
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Post Re: this is the point
Bitchen wrote:
The anti choicers don't get that part. They are so indoctrinated by pro life propaganda and Fox News, that they think it is just aborted fetuses. Ignorance is bliss to them, I suppose.
...

Speaking of ignorant, ...
...

We will be left out in the cold because of our backward thinking and having so many people brainwashed by the confused Christian right. The U.S. used to be ahead in the field of science, but Bush and you guys don't want it to grow based on erroneous information about aborted fetuses.

You're such a tactful guy. How could we have been so rude to you??


Bitchen wrote:
Speaking if ignorant, Pres. Bush has threatened to oppose a bipartisan bill on stem cell, where his own Republicans and Nancy Reagan want it to pass.

I guess he's not all that partisan then.

You don't need to kill living human beings to get stem cells. Get off your love affair with death and killing and look for ethical ways to practice medicine and science. It won't hurt you, I promise.

_________________
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:22 am
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Motorman
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Ok, since you missed my point, I will write very simply like I would for the special educated.

IF PEOPLE ARE THROWING OUT INTO THE TRASH UNUSED FERTILIZED EGGS, and they are TRASH anyway, why not use them for HELPING ALIVE PEOPLE who are suffering from diseases that will kill them? Why would the life of a fertilized egg in the trash DYING be more important than a LIVE human being who has a chance to live from the DYING TRASHED EGGS?

God you two don't get it! The eggs are being trashed by the thousands anyway! DUH! And it is hard not to be rude to you, you have mush for brains and are as stubborn as dumb asses (in the donkey sense of course).

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Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:54 am
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Godzilla
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Bitchen wrote:
Ok, since you missed my point, I will write very simply like I would for the special educated.

What a nice guy! :D

Bitchen wrote:
God you two don't get it! The eggs are being trashed by the thousands anyway! DUH! And it is hard not to be rude to you, you have mush for brains and are as stubborn as dumb asses (in the donkey sense of course).

What a nice guy! :D

Since you missed my point, I'll just repost it:

That's like saying, "If they don't hold blacks as slaves, they're just going to lynch them. So they might as well hold them as slaves." Hey, I've got a novel idea: How about we stop treating human beings as a disposable commodity? Then we won't be able to argue that cannibalizing them is okay. Remember how the Nazis used the skin of Jews as lampshades? Same deal.

Am I the only one who notices you never address my points and comebacks? I do suspect there's someone who's not reading the posts, but it's not us.

_________________
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:37 pm
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