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 A Report from Terri Schiavo's Room 
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Godzilla

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 7:34 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:

I'm an agnostic which is much akin to deism.

Deism : The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

Agnosticism: The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.


In either case, there is no belief in divine revelation or influence in the lives of mortals.


While neither believe in special revelation there is a major difference between the two. Deism is based on the belief that God exists but has ceased to act in human history since Creation. The exaple that has been used for years is that he designed the clock, wuond it up and walked away from it and its been running since. This is vastly different from saying that no-way, ever can there ever be enough proof to determine wheter God exists or does not exist-- as a hard determination that God does not exist would, by definition, make one an atheist.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:56 pm
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Godzilla

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GTRMAN wrote:
But it IS true!!

Read the following quotes from some of our "founding fathers"!!

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."
-George Washington



You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.[/b] -- George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 55.
But it IS true!!

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Woodlawn, 26 February, 1833
Sir,

I received your favor of the 20th instant last evening, and hasten to give you the information, which you desire.

Truro Parish [Episcopal] is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother...

He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.

It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].

My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.

He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven].

Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

With sentiments of esteem,

I am, Nelly Custis-Lewis
-- Washington's adopted daughter!

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"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."
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A Portion of George Washington's personal prayers:

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”

"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."
[from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752]
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I can find hundreds more if you would like. Arguing Washington was not a Christian is like arguing that water isn't wet.

Most of the founding fathers had come from England and had seen first-hand the dangers of having an official state religion and regardless of their personal beliefs did not want this to happen in America.

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Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:07 am
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Godzilla
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Joe wrote:
This is vastly different from saying that no-way, ever can there ever be enough proof to determine whether God exists or does not exist

A funny thing about that statement is that it can only be taken on faith. Because, it order to know it empirically, you'd have to know all things there are to be known. Because, as far as I know, there is nothing about being able to detect the presence of God that violates a rule of logic.

Joe wrote:
Most of the founding fathers had come from England and had seen first-hand the dangers of having an official state religion and regardless of their personal beliefs did not want this to happen in America.

Exactly! Much on the New World was populated by refugees of religious persecution. You need to understand that when you read their quotes. "Establishment of religion" translated into "a denominational state church," as in Catholic, Lutheran or whatever. It did not mean forbidding religion to influence public policy or culture. It was their deep dedication to religion that brought many of them to the New World.

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Last edited by Sandman on Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:21 am
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Godzilla

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I was suffering from a case of insomnia (brought on by back pain) this weekend and happend to catch Meet the Press. There were some very interesting exhanges that took place.

The guests were Reza Aslan, Author "No God but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam"; Rev. Robert Drinan, S.J., Professor of Law, Georgetown Law, Former Congressman from Massachusetts (1970-1980); Dr. Richard Land, President of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention; Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-CT), Junior Senator from Connecticut; Jon Meacham, Managing Editor, of Newsweek; Rev. Jim Wallis, Author "God's Politics: Why the Right Gets it Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get it"

Some of the highlights (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7284978/):

Quote:
MR. RUSSERT: Senator Lieberman, your Republican colleague from Connecticut in the House, Christopher Shays, had this to say. "This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy. ... There are going to be repercussions from this vote [on Schiavo's constitutional rights]. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them."

You agree with that?

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN, (D-CT): I don't. But that's a very credible and respectable opinion for Chris to take. See, I think--and Chris was there on the floor of the House, so maybe he heard in the debate some things that I didn't hear following it from a distance. The fact is that, though I know a lot of people's attitude toward the Schiavo case and other matters is affected by their faith and their sense of what religion tells them about morality, ultimately as members of Congress, as judges, as members of the Florida state Legislature, this is a matter of law. And the law exists to express our values.

I have been saying this in speeches to students about why getting involved in government is so important, I always say the law is where we define the beginning of life and the end of life, and that's exactly what was going on here. And I think as a matter of law, if you go--particularly to the 14th Amendment, can't be denied due process, have your life or liberty taken without due process of law, that though the Congress' involvement here was awkward, unconventional, it was justified to give this woman, more than her parents or husband, the opportunity for one more chance before her life was terminated by an act which was sanctioned by a court, by the state.

These are very difficult decisions, but--of course, if you ask me what I would do if I was the Florida Legislature or any state legislature, I'd say that if somebody doesn't have a living will and the next of kin disagree on whether the person should be kept alive or that is whether food and water should be taken away and her life ended that really the benefit of the doubt ought to be given to life. And the family member who wants to sustain her life ought to have that right because the judge really doesn't know, though he heard the facts, one judge, what Terri Schiavo wanted. He made a best guess based on the evidence before him. That's not enough when you're talking about aggressively removing food and water to end someone's life.

MR. RUSSERT: You would have kept the tube in?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: I would have kept the tube in.


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Quote:
PROF. REZA ASLAN: Well, look, no religion that aspires to anything more than metaphysical contemplation can remain indifferent to the realities of the secular world. It's perfectly natural for religion to have an influence in politics. I mean, I think that the difference between a democracy and a theocracy is not secularism but pluralism. The problem with Iran is a lack of pluralism, a lack of religious freedoms. But I would argue that religion plays a dominant role in American politics, as it does in a number of modern democracies. Religion, as the senator was saying, is, whether we like it or not, the moral foundation of our country. It's in this case it's a Protestant foundation, but Israel is built upon a Jewish moral foundation and Iran is built upon an Islamic moral foundation. So I don't in any way say, you know, that the U.S. and Iran share the same freedoms and the same liberties, of course that's not true. Iran is a clerical oligarchy. But nonetheless, I think that the people who, that in the United States who talk about bringing out the moral values upon which this country was founded tend to have a different view when those moral values are Islamic.


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Quote:
MR. RUSSERT: Senator Lieberman, I was very much intrigued by a comment you made this week in the debate about drilling for oil in the arctic national wildlife region. You invoked two names that I remember very well from my Bible. Let me read it for you. "For me, this all began at the beginning with the Bible and with the instruction that God gave to Adam and Eve that they should both work and guard the Garden of Eden, which is to say that they should not only develop and cultivate it, but also protect it."

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Correct.

MR. RUSSERT: Adam and Eve in the terms of oil in the arctic wildlife.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Right.

MR. RUSSERT: Explain that.

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Later in the speech, I spoke from Corinthians and said that God calls on us to be guardians--we are called on to be guardians of the mysteries of God. And one of the great mysteries, obviously, is God's creation. Look, I want to say generally, very briefly, that the mix of God and government, of religion and politics, is quintessentially American, and it was there at the beginning. The fact is that in the first American document, the Declaration of Independence, the founders of our country said that they were forming the new government to secure the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that they saw as the endowment of our creator. So this government, this country was not neutral about God right at the outset. One, accepting that there is a creator, so our existence here is not accidental. And secondly, that as a result of the creation, we have an inherent unity. We are all equal. We have equal opportunity for those rights. We are a country based on a vision, a belief in creationism. And part of that is not only the humans, who were created on the sixth day, but the but the natural Earth.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
MR. RUSSERT: And we are back.

Let me pick up on what Senator Lieberman was talking about, how faith and religion are at the center of our government from the very beginning of time. Alexis De Tocqueville, who came here in the mid-1800s and wrote a book about democracy in America, found just that and this is what he wrote. "Freedom sees in religion the companion of its struggles and its triumphs...the divine source of its rights. It considers religion as the safeguard of mores, and mores as the guarantee of laws. ... Americans so completely confuse Christianity and freedom in their minds that is is almost impossible to have them conceive of the one without the other."

MR. MEACHAM: It was true for a long time, in the ancient world as well, the idea that there would be a moral law governing our--the laws of nations and the laws of people, I think is exactly right. Tocqueville came here in about 1830, which is the age of Andrew Jackson. My favorite detail about that is that two songs were immensely popular in those very years--"My Country 'Tis of Thee" and "Amazing Grace," and those two things, absolutely to my mind, encapsulate America.

And I think the senator was exactly right. We did not--Americans did not come here to escape religion. Americans came here to escape an established religion. They did not want to take an oath, they did not want their civil liberties tied to their religious beliefs but that does not mean that they didn't want absolute freedom to practice those beliefs.

MR. RUSSERT: Mr. Aslan, when you hear "Christianity and freedom"--let me allude to something you wrote and said. "As a Muslim American, you belong to two communities. ...Your first allegiance is as an American citizen. You belong to the community of the United States. However, Muslims also belong to a second community as well, the community of worldwide Muslims."

Are they ever in conflict?

PROF. ASLAN: Sure. Of course they are. I mean, think what de Tocqueville was saying is not only absolutely true, but it also is the foundation of some of the conflicts that are taking place right now between the Western world and the Muslim world. We do absolutely equate Christianity and freedom so completely that the two become almost identical. And so when the president talks about bringing democracy and freedom and liberty to the Muslim world, especially to the atocracies in the Middle East, too often that comes off as bringing Christianity to the Muslim world. And this is something that I think Muslims are very sensitive to, particularly because of the colonialistic experience. And this was an era only 100 years ago in which some 90 percent of the world's Muslim population was living under colonial oppression, which was very clearly expressed, not just as a quote-unquote, "civilizing mission," but also as a Christianizing mission. That sensitivity is still there, and so I think it's very important.


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Quote:
MR. RUSSERT: Senator Lieberman, when you hear political leaders, religion leaders say, "America is a Christian nation," as a Jewish American, how do you feel?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: I hear it this way, and this may be a companion piece to what Reza has just said. This is a country founded by Christians, a majority of whose citizens are Christians. But going back to the premise I spoke to before, those rights to life, liberty and a pursuit of happiness, which we have as the endowment of our creator, have been given to everybody. So though this is a nation that--the majority of which is Christian, I will say to you as a Jewish American that I believe in the 5,765 years of Jewish history, there has never been a country, other than Israel during certain times of its history, which has given Jews more freedom. The same can now be said of Islam and Buddhism and Hindus, etc., etc., etc. That's the glory of this country and, frankly, the grace and gift of the Christians who founded the country and who continue to be the majority within it.

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Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:42 am
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Godzilla
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Wow, what a timely post! Thanks, Joe.

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Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:08 am
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"Let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle."
President George Washington's Farewell Address


GTRMAN,

Earlier you said I called you a liar. I didn't called you a liar, but I suspect you have been lied to. You seem to think the good things about our nation came about independently of Christianity. It' just not true.

As you read these, consider two things:

1. Do the depictions of God expressed harmonize with your understanding of what Diests believe?

2. What would be your reaction if these words were spoken today by conservative Christian members of Congress?



George Washington

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." [August 20, 1778, letter to Brig. General Thomas Nelson]

"Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee." [prayer at Valley Forge]

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency...We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained." [April 30, 1789, Inaugural Address]

"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" [April 30, 1789, Inaugural Address]

"Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion." [ca. 1789, Maxims of Washington, ed. John F. Schroeder (Mt. Vernon: Mt. Vernon Ladies Association, 1942), p. 106]

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country." [July 9, 1776]

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." [Washington's Farewell Address]


John Adams

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." [July 4, 1821]

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity." [June 28, 1813, letter to Thomas Jefferson]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." [Oct. 13, 1789, address to the military]

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there contained! Every member would be obliged in conscience to temperance, frugality and industry: to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men: and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." [Feb. 22., 1756, diary entry]

"The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to man." [July 26, 1796, retorting to Thomas Paine in his diary]

"A patriot without religion, in my estimation, is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society? ...The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation." [1776, Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to her husband]

"...a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public." [1776, Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to her husband]

"The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but the God of Israel is He that giveth strength and power unto His people. Trust in Him at all times, ye people, pour out your hearts before Him; God is a refuge for us." [1776, Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to her husband]

"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." [June 21, 1776, John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401]

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." [June 28, 1813, a letter to Thomas Jefferson, The Adams-Jefferson Letters,ed. Lester J. Cappon (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), vol 2, pp. 339-40.]


Thomas Jefferson

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."

"Of all systems of morality, ancient of modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." [1813, to William Canby]

"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..."

“I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make better citizens, better fathers, better husbands... the Bible makes the best people in the world."

"My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others—" [April 21, 1803, to Dr. Benjamin Rush]

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a cisciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator." [Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his Bible]


James Madison

"Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land."

"While we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess, and to observe, the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to them whose minds have not yielded to the evidence which has convinced us." [James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance (Massachusetts: Isaiah Thomas, 1786). This can be found in numerous documentary histories and other resources. The religion of divine origin was obviously Christianity, of which Madison said he was convinced.]

"Waiving the rights of conscience, not included in the surrender implied by the social state, & more or less invaded by all Religious establishments, the simple question to be decided, is whether a support of the best & purest religion, the Christian religion itself ought not, so far at least as pecuniary means are involved, to be provided for by the Government, rather than be left to the voluntary provisions of those who profess it." [James Madison response to an essay/sermon by Reverend Jasper Adams. Religion and Politics in the Early Republic: Jasper Adams and the Church-State Debate, Daniel L. Dreisbach, ed. (Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1996), p. 117]

"Religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, that all men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the magistrate, unless under color of religion any man disturb the peace, the happiness, or safety of society, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other." [ca. 1789, cited in Gaillard Hunt, James Madison and Religious Liberty (Washington: American Historical Association, Government Printing Office, 1902), p. 166]


James Monroe

"The liberty, prosperity, and the happiness of our country will always be the object of my most fervent prayers to the Supreme Author of All Good." [March 5, 1821 in his Second Inaugural Address]


John Quincy Adams

"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God."

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity."

"My custom is to read four or five chapters of the Bible every morning immediately after rising... It seems to me the most suitable manner of beginning the day... It is an invaluable and inexhaustible mine of knowledge and virtue."


Andrew Jackson

"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests."


Abraham Lincoln

"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book.

“I am profitably engaged in reading the Bible. Take all of this Book upon reason that you can, and the balance by faith, and you will live and die a better man."

Lincoln’s famous words, speaking of the slavery issue in America, were, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." He was quoting from Luke 11:17, in which Jesus’ enemies claimed Jesus could cast out demons because He was in league with the devil himself Jesus replied, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth" (KJV)

President Lincoln, a devoted Bible reader, claimed the Bible moved him to issue his Emancipation Proclamation, freeing America’s slaves, in 1863. He noted especially the words of Exodus 6:5: "I [God] have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage" (KJV).

Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address
"Fellow countrymen: At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first...The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself; and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured...

"Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and as a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other...The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully...If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?

"Fondly do we hope - fervently do we pray - that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'The judgements of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.'

"With malice toward none; charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan - to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations." Immediately afterwards, Lincoln kissed the Bible, bowed, and retired from the platform. [March 4th, 1865, Abraham Lincoln's 2nd inaugural address]

"Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty".

"The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next."

"The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion."


Theodore Roosevelt

“To every man who faces life with real desire to do his part in everything, I appeal for a study of the Bible."


Woodrow Wilson

"America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scriptures. Ladies and gentlemen, I have a very simple thing to ask of you. I as of every man and woman in this audience that from this night on they will realize that part of the destiny of America lies in their daily perusal of this great book of revelations. That if they would see America free and pure they will make their own spirits free and pure by this baptism of the Holy Scripture." [1911, pre-Presidential campaign speech]

“I have a very simple thing to ask of you. I ask every man and woman in this audience that from this day on they will realize that part of the destiny of America lies in their daily perusal of this great Book (the Bible)." [as President]


Herbert Hoover

"The study of the Bible is a post-graduate course in the richest library of human experience." [as President]


Harry Truman

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state."

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Last edited by Sandman on Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:31 pm
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Guys, let it go. It's over.

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Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:40 pm
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Why is there such a big discussion about this whole morality based on Christianity thing? In my opinion, our morality is based on Christianity no more than it is based on the morals of the authors of the bible 2,000+ years ago, or whatever.

My morality is based on what I think is right, I will not be bound to the rules and regulations of a book of unknown provenance written thousands of years ago.

Why do you have to say that morality comes from Christianity? Are you saying that no one, even yourself, can tell the difference between right and wrong, without the guidance of a book?

Furthermore, although the morals of Chrisianity and myself have many similarities (mostly because they are just common sense), there are also many differences. For example, homosexuality is considered immoral by the bible, yet I, as I'm sure is the same for many others, including the law, do not believe this is so.

Although I'm no expert, I can only assume (based on the slave trade and black lynchings etc.) that the America of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, believed that racism towards black people is morally right, this leads me to believe that the bible says this also. How many people now, would say that this is true? Would you?

Here's a rundown of the ten commandments:

1: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

This is saying that all other religions (with a different god, including atheism) are wrong. This is racism (or rather, creedism).

2: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

I don't know what this means, my interpretation of this is that anyone who draws a picture of heaven, hell or underwater, is immoral. This is ridiculous, I'd like to see anyone try to convince me that this is immoral.

3: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

I've no idea what this means.

4: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

As opposed to every other day when you can be as unholy as you want? What exactly does it mean by "keep it holy" anyway? Can anyone give a definitive answer? I doubt it. Does anyone manage to "keep it holy" anyway? I've no idea.

5: 'Honour your father and your mother.'

"Honour?" I don't know what this means either. I can only assume this means, don't betray them. Or something similar. However, this depends entirely on the situation, in my opinion.

6: 'You shall not murder.'

Well this is just common sense.

7: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Again, this is just common sense.

8: 'You shall not steal.'

Once again, just common sense.

9: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

I would imagine this is more serious than, "Don't lie", therefore, this is just common sense.

10: 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.'

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by covet, but I do not see what is wrong with wanting something, this is what drives us to do most things. We work for money so that we can buy things, is that immoral?

So clearly, at least in my opinion, which is entirely law-biding, religion plays very little part in what I regard as right or wrong.

All I will say on the Terri Schiavo issue is:

Why should we be involved with, or have any kind of judgment on something that is so personal, and something that I'm sure none of us have all the facts on?

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Speed_DemonX wrote:
Why is there such a big discussion about this whole morality based on Christianity thing? In my opinion, our morality is based on Christianity no more than it is based on the morals of the authors of the bible 2,000+ years ago, or whatever.


And you are more than entitled to your opinion, as am I. Mine just happends to completely disagree with you. I believe you are wrong and I am right and you believe the converse. There is nothing inheriently wrong with that. Can you imagine what the world would be like if we all wanted and believe EXACTLY the same things.

Quote:
My morality is based on what I think is right, I will not be bound to the rules and regulations of a book of unknown provenance written thousands of years ago.


Again we differ. I choose to have the Bible be the basis for morality and faith in my life and you do not. Again I think you are worng and you think I am.

What I am going to do now is attempt to answer some of your thoughts and opinions based on what I believe to be the truth. Your opinion will more than likely differ. Again that is fine. However, I must insist you treat my opinion with respect as I have attempted to do nothing but the same for you.

Quote:
Why do you have to say that morality comes from Christianity?

Because I believe that through both natural and special revelation that God has placed his law in the hearts and in the conscience of all people. Natural revelation is inherient in all humans because we are created in the image of God and have in common conscience and the ability to create (life, art, music). Special revelation is the revealed word of God and is found in the Bible.

Quote:
Are you saying that no one, even yourself, can tell the difference between right and wrong, without the guidance of a book?


The Bible itself dosen't make that claim. While it says that all people are inheriently sinners and are naturally opposed to God, Paul makes it abundantly clear (in his epistles and in the book of Acts) that there is enough of God revealed in Nature to make all men accountably for their actions-- they have a moral code hard-wired into them.

Moving on to special revelation, the Old Testament serves several functions. First it is a historical book which tells of the origins of humanity (generally) and God's calling of the Jewish people to be his chosen represenatives on Earth (specifically). Contained within the history is the Law which makes very specific demands on the Jewish people in order that they might live reconciled with God (since humanity had distanced itself at the Fall). The Ten Commandments is part of the Law. (While there are also the Psalms, Proverbs and the books of Poetry and Prophecy they don't really bare on this discussion). The Old Testament is used by both Jews and Christians.

Quote:
Furthermore, although the morals of Chrisianity and myself have many similarities (mostly because they are just common sense), there are also many differences. For example, homosexuality is considered immoral by the bible, yet I, as I'm sure is the same for many others, including the law, do not believe this is so.


Just for the sake of discussion, if I decide tomorrow that mass murder is legal becuase I feel deeply about it, and I persuade others to feel the same way, is mass murder no longer considered wrong? What if it actually becomes the law of the land, is it then any more right or wrong? (Please note I am not linking homosexuality and mass murder with each other)

Quote:
Although I'm no expert, I can only assume (based on the slave trade and black lynchings etc.) that the America of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, believed that racism towards black people is morally right, this leads me to believe that the bible says this also. How many people now, would say that this is true? Would you?


No more than one would say that Atheism directly leads one to raping and killing children or Islam leads one to crashing a plane into a building. While the Bible mentions slavery as a matter of fact (as it would be dishonest to pretend it was not happening) it in no way condones it or promotes it.

Specifically, in America, both the anti-slavery and civil rights movements were begun by church groups within the country who believed that all men are created equal. Names like Frederick Douglas, Sojourn Truth, and the Rev. Martin Luther King come to mind.

Quote:
Here's a rundown of the ten commandments:

1: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

This is saying that all other religions (with a different god, including atheism) are wrong. This is racism (or rather, creedism).


I'm not sure how to break this to you but every religion believes that every other religion is wrong. Othwise they wouldn't go through the time to wear fancy hats, create their own form of worship and sets of laws and give themselves a name that differentiates them from other groups. Correct me if I am wrong but don't atheists believe that those who believe in a God are wrong? This view (that their religion is the only one that is correct) is shared by Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and so on.

The problem is not in believing that one is right but believing that any person who dosen't believe like they do is wrong and needs to be converted by force (physical or political). This is known as intolerance.
Every religion on earth equally has blood on their hands when it comes to this. Often factions within each religious group will even turn on themselves (i.e. Protestants and Catholics).

Quote:
2: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

I don't know what this means, my interpretation of this is that anyone who draws a picture of heaven, hell or underwater, is immoral. This is ridiculous, I'd like to see anyone try to convince me that this is immoral.

You are missing quit a bit of the commandment here. It actually reads:
Quote:
"You shall not make for yourself an idol (graven image) in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.


So its ok to make images but not to worship them as though they are God.


Quote:
3: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

I've no idea what this means.


It means that God's name is holy and is to reverred. This means it is not to be used profanely, used to swear by (as in an oath), or to be given to any cause, statement that is not truly from God.

Quote:
4: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

As opposed to every other day when you can be as unholy as you want? What exactly does it mean by "keep it holy" anyway? Can anyone give a definitive answer? I doubt it. Does anyone manage to "keep it holy" anyway? I've no idea.


On the Seventh Day, God rested so on that day we are to rest and reflect upon the Lord and his works. This was taken to not work, engage in physical activites or anything that did not glorify the Lord-- the movie "Charoits of Fire" has a great example of this when Eric Liddle refused to run in the 100m because it was on a Sunday. (The impact of Christ and the New Testament on the Sabbath is topic of an entirely different sort)

Quote:
5: 'Honour your father and your mother.'

"Honour?" I don't know what this means either. I can only assume this means, don't betray them. Or something similar. However, this depends entirely on the situation, in my opinion.


This means to honor: To listen and accept counsel from them, to not bring dishonor to their name, to help them, etc.

Quote:
6: 'You shall not murder.'

Well this is just common sense.

7: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Again, this is just common sense.

8: 'You shall not steal.'

Once again, just common sense.

9: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

I would imagine this is more serious than, "Don't lie", therefore, this is just common sense.


You know its really easy to look at the second oldest recorded moral code in the history of humanity* thousands of years later and after it has been adopted by numerous cultures, including your own, and say that its now "common sense" ( *the Code of Hammurabi has been dated to have been written before the oldest found copy of the Penteuch.)

Quote:
10: 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.'

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by covet, but I do not see what is wrong with wanting something, this is what drives us to do most things. We work for money so that we can buy things, is that immoral?


Covet means to "lust after" and not just lusting over something similiar to what your neighbor has but specifically what your neighbor has. So lusting after your neighbor's wife, daughter, house and what not are not accpetable.


Quote:
All I will say on the Terri Schiavo issue is:

Why should we be involved with, or have any kind of judgment on something that is so personal, and something that I'm sure none of us have all the facts on?


While I know this isn't aimed at me I will reply. I've not stated my opinion either way on Terri only on claims about our founding fathers. I believe that its a shame that things ended the way they did and I am sorry for everyone involved.

I believe however that Congress and the Senate had absolutely no business interviening as this was a civil matter (that I believe was handled wrongly) that should have remained in the Florida courts. (But that's just me an my states rights stance again...)

Again... this is my opinion. Yours will more than likely vary.

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Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:35 pm
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Speed_DemonX wrote:
Why is there such a big discussion about this whole morality based on Christianity thing? In my opinion, our morality is based on Christianity no more than it is based on the morals of the authors of the bible 2,000+ years ago, or whatever.

My morality is based on what I think is right, I will not be bound to the rules and regulations of a book of unknown provenance written thousands of years ago.

Why do you have to say that morality comes from Christianity? Are you saying that no one, even yourself, can tell the difference between right and wrong, without the guidance of a book?


Thank you for posting your ideas and questions.

To be able to address your question, I have to understand what you mean by "morality" and "right and wrong." Can you elaborate?

Speed_DemonX wrote:
Furthermore, although the morals of Chrisianity and myself have many similarities (mostly because they are just common sense), there are also many differences. For example, homosexuality is considered immoral by the bible, yet I, as I'm sure is the same for many others, including the law, do not believe this is so.

Although I'm no expert, I can only assume (based on the slave trade and black lynchings etc.) that the America of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, believed that racism towards black people is morally right, this leads me to believe that the bible says this also.
It doesn't. And slavery in the cplonies was controversial at the time of the Revolution. The deep divide on it came very close to preventing the Revolution. (Watch the excellent film 1776 for detail.) The "activists" against slavery in the Civil War era (like the Underground Railroad) were committed Christians, motivated by their Christian beliefs -- much like the Christians in the civil rights movement and the "Religious Right" of today.

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Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:00 am
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:lol: :lol: Richard Tull... Livening things up!

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Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:05 am
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Man, after 22 pages of heated discussion about death I needed a laugh. :|


Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:26 am
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Richard tull owns! scrolled through those millions of paragraphs and then saw that.... mmmm :) Richard, im in meyvn now. We will also be playing that June 4th gig at bigsby's, Cant wait to meet you!


Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:49 am
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Speed_DemonX wrote:
1: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

This is saying that all other religions (with a different god, including atheism) are wrong. This is racism (or rather, creedism).



That's NOT what it means. I means God is first in your life....all else is second. Not money, possessions, etc. It also means do not pray to anything other than God....not to Saints, Angels or any other creatures.



Quote:
2: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

I don't know what this means, my interpretation of this is that anyone who draws a picture of heaven, hell or underwater, is immoral. This is ridiculous, I'd like to see anyone try to convince me that this is immoral.


Only the Amish believe this. Christians and Jews "violate" this rule more than other. It's hard to find a church without any statues, crosses..etc.


Quote:
3: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

I've no idea what this means.



This has NOTHING to do with swearing. This means do not use the Lords name and then break it. Many people sealed deals with "I swear to God" If you broke your promise, then you committed a sin.

Quote:
4: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

As opposed to every other day when you can be as unholy as you want? What exactly does it mean by "keep it holy" anyway? Can anyone give a definitive answer? I doubt it. Does anyone manage to "keep it holy" anyway? I've no idea.


Yes..I can. The original commandment was for Saturday. It was later switched to Sunday.

Once again...modern times have change the way we do things...my companies are open on Sunday, forcing people to work.

What this commandment means, is you are to focus your thoughts on God on this day. Labor Mon-Sat...but on Sunday, spend time in prayer, church. No work...that's all. What's wrong with having a quiet day?


Quote:
5: 'Honour your father and your mother.'

"Honour?" I don't know what this means either. I can only assume this means, don't betray them. Or something similar. However, this depends entirely on the situation, in my opinion.



Original intent...Do not abandon your elderly parents. Be there for them. Though yes...if you were molested, situation dictates differently.



Quote:
9: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

I would imagine this is more serious than, "Don't lie", therefore, this is just common sense.



This more has to do with bearing witness in a crime. If you lied in court, you were given a sentence, equal to the defendant that you lied against.

Personally...i like that one. Would sure limit perjury.



Quote:
10: 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.'

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by covet, but I do not see what is wrong with wanting something, this is what drives us to do most things. We work for money so that we can buy things, is that immoral?



You have to use the older tranlastion for covet. This doesn't mean, my neighbor has a new lawn mower, but i'm not allowed to desire getting the same lawn mower.

Covet means = INORDINATE desire of the belongings of another.

What this means is....If you neighbor has a mower, you can't want that mower so badly, that you are willing to take the mower from him.

As for women....it doesn't mean you can't like your neighbors wife. It means you can't look at your neighbors wife, and desire to fuck the shit out of her. There's nothing unreasonable about that. Though, one must remember, back when the commandments were originally written, women were a possession. Regardless, it still applies.


Quote:
So clearly, at least in my opinion, which is entirely law-biding, religion plays very little part in what I regard as right or wrong.


What is morally acceptable, was guided by religion...like it or not. While things like Thou Shall Not Kill seem to be obvious, if there was no religion and humans had taken another course....perhaps it would be ordinary that men kill each other over women or whatever else.

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Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:37 am
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SRV463 wrote:
Richard, im in meyvn now. We will also be playing that June 4th gig at bigsby's, Cant wait to meet you!


Awesome, Jonathan! We're totally looking forward to jamming with you guys. Can't wait to meet ya' man...


Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:38 pm
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Speed_DemonX wrote:
2: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

I don't know what this means, my interpretation of this is that anyone who draws a picture of heaven, hell or underwater, is immoral. This is ridiculous, I'd like to see anyone try to convince me that this is immoral.
You misinterpreted it. This is a command against idolotry.

Speed_DemonX wrote:
4: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

As opposed to every other day when you can be as unholy as you want? What exactly does it mean by "keep it holy" anyway? Can anyone give a definitive answer? I doubt it. Does anyone manage to "keep it holy" anyway? I've no idea.

The idea was that people should not be working every day of the week, that they should have a day to rest. Holy means "set apart." The Sabbath was to be a day set apart from work.

KenHower wrote:
As for women....it doesn't mean you can't like your neighbors wife. It means you can't look at your neighbors wife, and desire to fuck the shit out of her. There's nothing unreasonable about that. Though, one must remember, back when the commandments were originally written, women were a possession. Regardless, it still applies.

Ken, what are you thinking of regarding women having been possessions? My first reaction is, that's not true, at least not in Jewish culture.

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Last edited by Sandman on Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Richard Tull wrote:
SRV463 wrote:
Richard, im in meyvn now. We will also be playing that June 4th gig at bigsby's, Cant wait to meet you!


Awesome, Jonathan! We're totally looking forward to jamming with you guys. Can't wait to meet ya' man...
Keep us posted on how it goes, guys. :D

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I thought this was a great rant from http://straightupwsherri.blogspot.com



THAT'S IT! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!

I just HAVE to hear it. C'mon, I want to hear the trolls explain just a FEW THINGS!

How do you HONESTLY believe that Terri WANTED to be dehydrated and starved to death? I really WANT TO KNOW! Because MICHAEL said so? Do your homework! Michael has LIED on the stand. Lied in the media. Hid a bone scan showing that Terri had 13 bone fractures and a "history of trauma" (scan was done in 1991, but the Schindlers never knew about it until 2002). Never asked question one about HOW Terri (the woman he loves so dearly) got 13 bone fractures! NO INVESTIGATION for Mr Malpractice Suit?! Never even MENTIONED it to the Schindlers, even though he was LIVING with them at the time! Never even asked, "Hey did you ever see any of the doctors or nurses drop Terri?" I would say that warrants a removal as guardian at the VERY LEAST!

Michael went shopping funeral homes and burial plots once he learned Terri had a urinary tract infection(see thread below for interviews with Bobby Schindler). Yes, back when he ordered them NOT to treat her for the infection. The same kind of infection that took the life of the Pope. Yes, untreated it can lead to death. KNOWING this, Michael ordered that Terri NOT be given the antibiotics needed to treat it. He not only admits it under oath, but goes on to explain that he was informed this was against the law to refuse her the antibiotics. He should have been removed as her guardian RIGHT THEN AND THERE! He also admits that because it was against the law was the ONLY reason he allowed them to treat her for it.

Michael wanted to become a nurse to CARE for Terri. Well, going to school for nursing- he should have been the FIRST ONE DEMANDING THAT TERRI get range of motion therapy! GOOD GRIEF! Even if you think she will never come out of it, YOU DON'T DENY RANGE OF MOTION! THAT IS BEYOND CRUEL!!!!! STRIKE THREE- NO WAY THIS MAN SHOULD BE GUARDIAN OF A DOG, LET ALONE A HANDICAPPED WOMAN!

Oh, that's right, Michaels brother and sister-in-law also said they remembered Terri didn't want to be on "artificial life support." Hmmmm, funny no, no they did not. At least not at first. But then neither did Michael say it at first. Michael waited until he was engaged to remember she didn't want to live this way. If you do your homework, you will find that the GAL (guardian ad litem) assigned to Terri back in 1998 found that Michael had a few conflicts of interest and was not reliable as to Terri's wishes. The GAL, Pearson, was alarmed by Michael's benefits of Terri's death, his new fiance, and the chronology of his "memory" of what Terri's "wishes" were. Once Pearson submitted his report- - IN WRITING-Felos immediatly filed for Pearson to be dismissed because he was "biased." HUH? Of course, Greer not only dismissed Pearson, but then assigned HIMSELF as GAL for Terri. This is AGAINST Florida Canons. Even better, it was after this report that more people with the last name Schiavo suddenly had miraculous memories of how Terri "wanted" to die.

Terri was shoved into a HOSPICE when she was NOT terminal- and Michael's attorney JUST HAPPENED TO BE ON THE BOARD!

AND US EEEVIL PRO-LIFERS ARE THE ONES MAKING UP CONSPIRACY?

WE ARE THE ONES WITH ILL INTENT?

WE ARE THE ONES PUSHING OUR WILL ONTO OTHERS???

TAKE A CLOSER LOOK! IT IS MICHAEL WHO PUSHED HIS WILL ON TERRI!

WE ARE THE WACKED OUT RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS? HAVE YOU READ FELOS' BOOK?
FELOS AND GREER WERE TOO HAPPY TO HELP!

THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT REASONS; BUT TO THEM, IT WAS NEVER ABOUT WHAT TERRI WANTED!

SADLY ENOUGH, TO MOST OF AMERICA IT WAS NEVER ABOUT WHAT TERRI WANTED. IT WAS USUALLY ABOUT HOW THEY WOULDN'T WANT TO LIVE THAT WAY, POLITICS, MEDIA, OR A POWER STRUGGLE BETWEEN THE 3 BRANCHES OF GOV'T.

SOMEHOW, TERRI GOT LOST IN THIS WHOLE THING. LITERALLY, TERRI GOT LOST.

AMERICA ONCE SAID, "GIVE US YOUR TIRED, YOUR POOR, YOUR HUDDLED MASSES." AMERICA NOW SAYS, GIVE US THE LAWBREAKERS SNEAKING ACROSS THE BORDER, WE'LL PROTECT THEM, WE'LL FIGHT FOR THEM, BUT DON'T GIVE US YOUR HANDICAPPED.

THE JUDICIAL BRANCH GAVE A LECTURE TO CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT? THIS WAS THE SADDEST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN IN AMERICA, SHORT OF 9/11. THEY CITE WHAT OUR FOREFATHERS WANTED? AS EARLY AS 1801, THOMAS JEFFERSON WARNED US AGAINST THE RULE OF FEW BY THE JUDICIARY. IF THERE IS ONE THING I KNOW FOR CERTAIN- OUR FOREFATHERS WOULD HAVE STARTED A MOVEMENT AGAINST A GOV'T THAT DID WHAT THEY DID TO TERRI, AND IT WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED WITH A TEA PARTY.

_________________
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:28 pm
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Godzilla
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:26 pm
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Location: Denver
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Let's kill the elderly and homeless, too!

_________________
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Last edited by Sandman on Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:34 pm
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