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Godzilla
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You're missing the point.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:10 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
You're missing the point.


No, my point remains intact. There is no need for a theistic spin in our SECULAR government or it's laws.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:11 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
"Creator" does not have to be a deity.. It could refer to nature or the combination of parents. It could be Earth, itself. That's why they did NOT mention the Christian god, specifically. Remember, many of the "founding fathers were Deists rather than christians.

That's not true. But even it were, are you under the impression that they rejected the Biblical teachings regarding the sorts of concepts I've referenced?

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:15 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
Sandman wrote:
You're missing the point.

No, my point remains intact. There is no need for a theistic spin in our SECULAR government or it's laws.
When you want to get serious about considering things, I'll participate. But I can tell you'ne not at that point. You're right, YOUR point remains intact -- nothing else is even considered.

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:18 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
"Creator" does not have to be a deity.. It could refer to nature or the combination of parents. It could be Earth, itself. That's why they did NOT mention the Christian god, specifically. Remember, many of the "founding fathers were Deists rather than christians.

That's not true. But even it were, are you under the impression that they rejected the Biblical teachings regarding the sorts of concepts I've referenced?


But it IS true!!

Read the following quotes from some of our "founding fathers"!!

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."
-George Washington

“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”
-John Adams

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"
-James Madison

James Madison, introducing the Bill of Rights at the First Federal Congress, Congressional Register, June 8, 1789:
"[The] civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner or on any pretext infringed."


Benjamin Franklin
“Scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself ”

“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

Ethan Allen
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”

Thomas Paine
"My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity”



Do think twice before calling me a liar again.. :wink:

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Last edited by GTRMAN on Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:27 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Sandman wrote:
You're missing the point.

No, my point remains intact. There is no need for a theistic spin in our SECULAR government or it's laws.
When you want to get serious about considering things, I'll participate. But I can tell you'ne not at that point. You're right, YOUR point remains intact -- nothing else is even considered.


And what have you considered? You should speak your arguments into mirrors prior to presenting them to others lest you risk sounding like a hypocrite..

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Last edited by GTRMAN on Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:32 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
Think twice before calling me a liar again..

I didn't call you liar. I corrected you. You should study history instead of spewing out-of-context quotes from a zealot website. I could list numerous quotes to the contrary, but why bother?

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:33 pm
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Godzilla
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So are you a Diest? I could make the same arguments from that perspective if you wanted.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:36 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Think twice before calling me a liar again..

I didn't call you liar. I corrected you. You should study history instead of spewing out-of-context quotes from a zealot website. I could list numerous quotes to the contrary, but why bother?


Please do show me quotes by the above mentioned men that shows them to be Christians rather than Deists. Then you have grounds for debate until then, your comments are purely reactionary.

Deism : The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:39 pm
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”
-John Adams
What should I get from that? Accurate or not, it sounds like I shouldn't be allowed to practice religion even if I wanted to.

Communist Russia thought that sentence was a good idea, too.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:43 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
Thomas Paine
"My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity”


Thomas Paine on "The Study of God"
Delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, in a
Discourse to the Society of Theophilanthropists

It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles. He can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.

When we examine an extraordinary piece of machinery, an astonishing pile of architecture, a well executed statue or a highly finished painting where life and action are imitated, and habit only prevents our mistaking a surface of light and shade for cubical solidity, our ideas are naturally led to think of the extensive genius and talents of the artist. When we study the elements of geometry, we think of Euclid. When we speak of gravitation, we think of Newton. How then is it, that when we study the works of God in the creation, we stop short, and do not think of God? It is from the error of the schools in having taught those subjects as accomplishments only, and thereby separated the study of them form the Being who is the author of them. . . .

The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of the creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of His existence. They labor with studied ingenuity to ascribe everything they behold to innate properties of matter; and jump over all the rest, by saying that matter is eternal.


Read COMMON SENSE, Paine's work that was really the thing that got the people behind the Revolution. He makes that case against the King of England using the Old Testament. The argument goes, God told the children of Israel that their only King was Him, and that they should only have Judges. (God was the law giver.) But the people were evil and went against God's wishes and asked for a King. God granted them one, but it wasn't good. Therefore, the people of the colonies should call no one king but God the King.

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:44 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
So are you a Diest? I could make the same arguments from that perspective if you wanted.


That's what I've been asking all along. Especially when you look at the definition of Deism as it is not a religion. It's more of a philosophy.

I'm an agnostic which is much akin to deism.

Deism : The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

Agnosticism: The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.


In either case, there is no belief in divine revelation or influence in the lives of mortals.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:45 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”
-John Adams
What should I get from that? Accurate or not, it sounds like I shouldn't be allowed to practice religion even if I wanted to.

Communist Russia thought that sentence was a good idea, too.


He's expressing a personal opinion there. Not dictating a course of action.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:46 pm
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Godzilla

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 12:10 pm
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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Thomas Paine
"My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity”


Thomas Paine on "The Study of God"
Delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, in a
Discourse to the Society of Theophilanthropists

It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles. He can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.

When we examine an extraordinary piece of machinery, an astonishing pile of architecture, a well executed statue or a highly finished painting where life and action are imitated, and habit only prevents our mistaking a surface of light and shade for cubical solidity, our ideas are naturally led to think of the extensive genius and talents of the artist. When we study the elements of geometry, we think of Euclid. When we speak of gravitation, we think of Newton. How then is it, that when we study the works of God in the creation, we stop short, and do not think of God? It is from the error of the schools in having taught those subjects as accomplishments only, and thereby separated the study of them form the Being who is the author of them. . . .

The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of the creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of His existence. They labor with studied ingenuity to ascribe everything they behold to innate properties of matter; and jump over all the rest, by saying that matter is eternal.


Read COMMON SENSE, Paine's work that was really the thing that got the people behind the Revolution. He makes that case against the King of England using the Old Testament. The argument goes, God told the children of Israel that their only King was Him, and that they should only have Judges. (God was the law giver.) But the people were evil and went against God's wishes and asked for a King. God granted them one, but it wasn't good. Therefore, the people of the colonies should call no one king but God the King.


That still does NOTHING to prove your point.
It actually solidifies my position that he was a Deist as he expresses no belief that the "Creator" to which he is referring is the Christian God..

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:48 pm
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
Do think twice before calling me a liar again.. :wink:
Did I miss something? I don't remember anyone calling anyone a liar.

Here's a cute quote I modified from the Bible, & this would apply to everyone (I'm not singling you out, Gitman).

"Before removing the splinter from my eye, remove the forest from your ASS!"

I think it has a nice ring to it. :wink:

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:48 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Do think twice before calling me a liar again.. :wink:
Did I miss something? I don't remember anyone calling anyone a liar.

Here's a cute quote I modified from the Bible, & this would apply to everyone (I'm not singling you out, Gitman).

"Before removing the splinter from my eye, remove the forest from your ASS!"

I think it has a nice ring to it. :wink:



:? I have no idea where you're going with that..

Besides, isn't it considered blasphemy for a Christian to misquote the bible? :wink:

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:50 pm
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”
-John Adams
What should I get from that? Accurate or not, it sounds like I shouldn't be allowed to practice religion even if I wanted to.

Communist Russia thought that sentence was a good idea, too.


He's expressing a personal opinion there. Not dictating a course of action.
I'm glad you clarified. Come to think of it, facts or no facts, it seems there's a lot of personal opinion coming out, here...

From all sides.
Not that I think that's a bad thing.

Stimulating & inspiring thought can be a good thing.
(I need all the help I can get. :oops: )

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:53 pm
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Do think twice before calling me a liar again.. :wink:
Did I miss something? I don't remember anyone calling anyone a liar.

Here's a cute quote I modified from the Bible, & this would apply to everyone (I'm not singling you out, Gitman).

"Before removing the splinter from my eye, remove the forest from your ASS!"

I think it has a nice ring to it. :wink:



:? I have no idea where you're going with that..

Besides, isn't it considered blasphemy for a Christian to misquote the bible? :wink:
Nice try. I said I modified it. I'm trying to lighten the mood of some people who are taking themselves too seriously, right now.

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:55 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”
-John Adams
What should I get from that? Accurate or not, it sounds like I shouldn't be allowed to practice religion even if I wanted to.

Communist Russia thought that sentence was a good idea, too.


He's expressing a personal opinion there. Not dictating a course of action.
I'm glad you clarified. Come to think of it, facts or no facts, it seems there's a lot of personal opinion coming out, here...

From all sides.
Not that I think that's a bad thing.

Stimulating & inspiring thought can be a good thing.
(I need all the help I can get. :oops: )


That is why I'm so fond of debate.. :D It's not personal, it's intellectual. 8)

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:58 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Do think twice before calling me a liar again.. :wink:
Did I miss something? I don't remember anyone calling anyone a liar.

Here's a cute quote I modified from the Bible, & this would apply to everyone (I'm not singling you out, Gitman).

"Before removing the splinter from my eye, remove the forest from your ASS!"

I think it has a nice ring to it. :wink:



:? I have no idea where you're going with that..

Besides, isn't it considered blasphemy for a Christian to misquote the bible? :wink:
Nice try. I said I modified it. I'm trying to lighten the mood of some people who are taking themselves too seriously, right now.


I was being facetious.. Hence the wink.. ;)

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Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:58 pm
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