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 A starter in the world of Jazz Fusion 
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Superhero
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Post A starter in the world of Jazz Fusion
Got frustrated with le searchbar.

I'm looking for beginners lessons or tips on fusion, guthrieISH style. Really I'm just looking for where to start. I'm a big shredder, but I don't know anything about jazz really. This latest forum jam proved to me that :P

I know a couple of you are really good at this, I'd (an many others) appreciate all your insight.

I remember a thread way back with basics of jazz, but I couldn't find it again. Any links to other threads are totally welcomed! Thanks!

EDIT: This seems really cool! I'll try this one. Guy seems cool, licks seem cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWRUtqJgzI

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Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:20 pm
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Superhero
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Coming from a rock angle, (ie rock fusion a-la guthrie as you say) the most important thing is not to overwhelm yourself, learn the things that make a certain line sound "jazzy" or "outside" and add more of that to your playing as it is. If you start off by just going straight into jazz you'll soon get lost and nothing will really transfer into your playing.

The stuff that guy was playing was really just basic bebop, you wouldn't hear much of that in a fusion context.

Fusion players today (just look at Holdsworth) are more about specific modes and scales which they use to sound distinct from other players, so i'd recommend learning some exotic or symmetrical scales.

That's all I've got just now.


Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:52 pm
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Superhero
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Thanks Baz. I'm really having a hard time finding lessons in that genre, which is why I came here. I've taught myself most of what I know, I've grasped the dorian concept and use it too much now.

So I guess I'm looking for licks or lessons in rock jazz guitar a la howe, but more along the lines of govan.

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Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:37 pm
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God Of The Sun
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set up a vamp of Am7 for 2 bars then Cm7

this is fusion 101

the MOST important thing here is that its a visualisation exercise, start by playing in position 1 a minor pentatonic, when you come to the c DONT change to position 1 c minor pentatonic, thats a rock way of doing things

stay where you are, play position 5 c minor pentatonic

first start by just ascending and descending the scale and changing at relevant places, then play licks and link them

now do it all starting in position 2 a minor and move to position 1 c minor....

now position 3 a minor to position 4 c minor...

follow?

ok, when this is EXHAUSTED and i do mean that you know it COLD

set up the following progression

Am7 Cm7 Dm7 Fm7 Gm7

you can now play position 1 a minor to position 5 c minor to position 4 d minor to position 3 f minor to position 2 g minor

again start by ascending and decending scales

this one will be fustrating at first, but eventually you will forget where you are and focus on where you are going. visualisation

now do this starting in all positions of a minor....

eg

position 3 a minor - position 2 c minor - position 1 d minor - position 5 f minor - position 4 g minor

if you dont understand let me know and ill make a video

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:41 am
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Superhero
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basically what misstreater said.

Im doing a fuck load of jazz classes atm (probably too much, its abit overwhelming)

You HAVE to learn ALOT of boring shit before you can start breaking rules and adding spice.

My jazz workshop class teacher is making us play maj and min II V I changes arpeggios with out changing positions on the neck and using voice leading, with constant 8th notes.
Once you can follow the changes with the 7th arpeggios start throwing substitutions and altered scale and arpeggios derived from it. You do this for a long time, untill you can play through a maj/min short and long II V I progressions without thought.
Also get out the real book pick a chart and play from head to bottom voice leading arpeggios over the changes.

then do this for all 5 patterns.

thats kinda it in a nutshell, theres a whole lot more, but its a very good way to build a solid foundation.



Im doing a jazz live playing workshop with my band at school, and the teacher is pretty tough. But that jazz workshop class has saved my ass big time, because my fingers are really used playing II V I's and the real book is chock full of it.

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:54 am
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Viking Kong

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Post Re: A starter in the world of Jazz Fusion
pgm992 wrote:
Got frustrated with le searchbar.

I'm looking for beginners lessons or tips on fusion, guthrieISH style. Really I'm just looking for where to start. I'm a big shredder, but I don't know anything about jazz really. This latest forum jam proved to me that :P

I know a couple of you are really good at this, I'd (an many others) appreciate all your insight.

I remember a thread way back with basics of jazz, but I couldn't find it again. Any links to other threads are totally welcomed! Thanks!

EDIT: This seems really cool! I'll try this one. Guy seems cool, licks seem cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWRUtqJgzI



Guthrie is actually IMO a VERY blusey jazz player (based on what I've heard). I think a great place to learn good note placement is to learn basics of jazzy blues.


Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:09 am
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Godzilla

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:42 am
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Yesterday at the Suhr Guitars Clinic in DC, Guthrie took questions from the troops in the stands and a question was made "Do you look at the fretboard and your note choice 'Scalarly' or do you just 'play' " and Guthrie, in his wonderfully insightful way, ultimately said "NO". Combined with the question "How do yo go about combining jazz and rock?" Guth said that everything comes from the blues anyway so its all essentially the same. He went on to play a bunch of different licks with different tones/techniques to make the exact same note choices sound jazzy, bluesy, country, etc.

He suggested listening to a good group of Jazzy players and ultimately decide after some time if what you play sounds good. He also suggested starting with half-step accidentals to get tension and release in outside playing.


Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:44 am
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God Of The Sun
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thats interesting to hear

i will point out that the method im talking about is inside playing on an "outside" progression

i would say its best to tackle playing inside on outside progressios before playing outside on an inside progression

the main problem you will find when trying to tackle improvising in the guthrie style is navigating the non diatonic changes, the exercises i wrote out are purely visualisation exercises

when you play over vamp like the forum jam its seeing the scales change on the neck that is the problem, especially when you need to focus on which notes are chord tones

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:16 am
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MissMisstreater wrote:
set up a vamp of Am7 for 2 bars then Cm7

this is fusion 101

the MOST important thing here is that its a visualisation exercise, start by playing in position 1 a minor pentatonic, when you come to the c DONT change to position 1 c minor pentatonic, thats a rock way of doing things

stay where you are, play position 5 c minor pentatonic

first start by just ascending and descending the scale and changing at relevant places, then play licks and link them

now do it all starting in position 2 a minor and move to position 1 c minor....

now position 3 a minor to position 4 c minor...

follow?

ok, when this is EXHAUSTED and i do mean that you know it COLD

set up the following progression

Am7 Cm7 Dm7 Fm7 Gm7

you can now play position 1 a minor to position 5 c minor to position 4 d minor to position 3 f minor to position 2 g minor

again start by ascending and decending scales

this one will be fustrating at first, but eventually you will forget where you are and focus on where you are going. visualisation

now do this starting in all positions of a minor....

eg

position 3 a minor - position 2 c minor - position 1 d minor - position 5 f minor - position 4 g minor

if you dont understand let me know and ill make a video



A vid....


might help...

:oops:

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:45 pm
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God Of The Sun
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done will post link in few mins... but now you gotta add my band on facebook or myspace :)

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:29 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkiqrRD92GE

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:35 pm
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Superhero
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*becomes a fan

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:22 pm
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God Of The Sun
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Everything said thus far is all good advice.

I'd also like to add that I've been on an on and off fusion hiatus for a few years now. I've been playing a lot more fusiony stuff lately, and in all honesty, I feel like all the bebop vocabulary and chord voicings I've picked up thus far have really had a big impact on my playing.

I'd say definitely start out simple, but eventually try delving more into bebop. All the best fusion players are capable of playing straight ahead jazz/bebop if they want to. It's obvious when you hear the vocabulary coming out in their phrasing - ex) Frank Gambale, Michael Brecker, etc.

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:38 pm
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MissMisstreater wrote:
set up a vamp of Am7 for 2 bars then Cm7

this is fusion 101

the MOST important thing here is that its a visualisation exercise, start by playing in position 1 a minor pentatonic, when you come to the c DONT change to position 1 c minor pentatonic, thats a rock way of doing things

stay where you are, play position 5 c minor pentatonic

first start by just ascending and descending the scale and changing at relevant places, then play licks and link them

now do it all starting in position 2 a minor and move to position 1 c minor....

now position 3 a minor to position 4 c minor...

follow?

ok, when this is EXHAUSTED and i do mean that you know it COLD

set up the following progression

Am7 Cm7 Dm7 Fm7 Gm7

you can now play position 1 a minor to position 5 c minor to position 4 d minor to position 3 f minor to position 2 g minor

again start by ascending and decending scales

this one will be fustrating at first, but eventually you will forget where you are and focus on where you are going. visualisation

now do this starting in all positions of a minor....

eg

position 3 a minor - position 2 c minor - position 1 d minor - position 5 f minor - position 4 g minor

if you dont understand let me know and ill make a video


I'm gonna have to give this a go, got a massive improv module to do at college next year so this is exactly what I need :)
Oh and I added your band on myspace.....

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:50 pm
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Could you guys give me some good names to listen to/learn from? This might be easier for me to do if I had some influence besides pizzarelli, govan, and a little holdsworth.

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:20 pm
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is the Siren's Eye

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MissMisstreater wrote:
set up a vamp of Am7 for 2 bars then Cm7

this is fusion 101

the MOST important thing here is that its a visualisation exercise, start by playing in position 1 a minor pentatonic, when you come to the c DONT change to position 1 c minor pentatonic, thats a rock way of doing things

stay where you are, play position 5 c minor pentatonic


I'm a bit confused.

While I encourage practicing scales in different positions, I fail to see how this is fundamentally different from rock or why it's "the jazz-way" to play.

It's true that a lot of people get stuck in their 1st pentatonic box-way of thinking. I often do this myself, but in general I try to think of the pentatonic scale as just that, a scale, i.e. a collection of 5 notes.

I do visualise them as 5 patterns on the fretboard, but I try to keep their relative positions in mind (root, fifth, etc), because this makes it easier to throw in outside notes or change to the blues scale or aeolian.

Note that I'm not very efficient at improvising like that yet, but I know what I want to work on atleast ;)

Whenever I'm playing some pentatonic scale, I try to mix the boxes, move from one to another, move up or down 2 strings, instead of just going up and down every box. I try to play the same "patterns" in different boxes as well, to extend my lick vocabulary.

So...what's so special about your method? I understand it helps people think differently and not get stuck in a certain box. I guess what I'm asking is, why not just practice changing to another scale as the progression changes, and try to play the scale in any position, instead of reverting to the one you are most accustomed to (e.g. first pentatonic box or the root note of any given scale on the low E string starting with your index finger)


Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:00 pm
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God Of The Sun
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Kailoq wrote:
MissMisstreater wrote:
set up a vamp of Am7 for 2 bars then Cm7

this is fusion 101

the MOST important thing here is that its a visualisation exercise, start by playing in position 1 a minor pentatonic, when you come to the c DONT change to position 1 c minor pentatonic, thats a rock way of doing things

stay where you are, play position 5 c minor pentatonic


I'm a bit confused.

While I encourage practicing scales in different positions, I fail to see how this is fundamentally different from rock or why it's "the jazz-way" to play.

It's true that a lot of people get stuck in their 1st pentatonic box-way of thinking. I often do this myself, but in general I try to think of the pentatonic scale as just that, a scale, i.e. a collection of 5 notes.

I do visualise them as 5 patterns on the fretboard, but I try to keep their relative positions in mind (root, fifth, etc), because this makes it easier to throw in outside notes or change to the blues scale or aeolian.

Note that I'm not very efficient at improvising like that yet, but I know what I want to work on atleast ;)

Whenever I'm playing some pentatonic scale, I try to mix the boxes, move from one to another, move up or down 2 strings, instead of just going up and down every box. I try to play the same "patterns" in different boxes as well, to extend my lick vocabulary.

So...what's so special about your method? I understand it helps people think differently and not get stuck in a certain box. I guess what I'm asking is, why not just practice changing to another scale as the progression changes, and try to play the scale in any position, instead of reverting to the one you are most accustomed to (e.g. first pentatonic box or the root note of any given scale on the low E string starting with your index finger)


watch the video i posted

this is a limitation exercise and a visualistaion exercise

i assure you, i learned this from shaun baxter, and there is no better teacher, i therefore hold this exercise very highly

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Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:04 pm
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http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_i ... 138&ref=nf

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Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:56 am
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nice article :)

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Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:36 pm
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Quote:
I'm a bit confused.

While I encourage practicing scales in different positions, I fail to see how this is fundamentally different from rock or why it's "the jazz-way" to play.


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Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:09 pm
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