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 Photoshop request (RX related) 
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You satisfy the Wikipedia nazis....

Whereas I will settle on content. Congratulations.

And once again...for the 3rd or 4th time...the article was in the previous format...because that's how THEY wanted it.

People want to know why Wikipedia is not trusted? How many hours of interviewing did YOU do...before you started writing?

What was that? Did you say...Zero?

Thought so.

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Ken Hower Wrote: My advice to everyone.....DO NOT purchase any of these photographs....Tim Findlay can jack off to his hearts content over his killer pictures...alone.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:20 am
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Ken, the Wikipedia "nazis" are strict about their code of conduct, but we are given the privilege of writing articles on Wikipedia. If there are problems in the content, then be sure to let me know. But don't use the content as an excuse to get away with an article that completely ignores the standards of the encylopedia that you're writing it for. You can satisfy the wants of the Wikipedia team and have a concise article on Racer X at the same time.

KenHower wrote:
All references to SOD 2 and how the story behind, was deleted.

The Tour in 2002, is now under the new Getting Heavier heading, when in fact the tour was conceived 1 year before Getting Heavier was even recorded.


The heading is fine, as it was made to point out the greater subject matter: the recording of Getting Heavier. But I understand the point about SOD 2, and included how the album was sold alongside GH in a package deal.

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Last edited by Ryan on Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:23 am
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The heading is your heading....


My formatting was how the BAND wanted it...and yours is how Ryan wanted it.

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Ken Hower Wrote: My advice to everyone.....DO NOT purchase any of these photographs....Tim Findlay can jack off to his hearts content over his killer pictures...alone.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:25 am
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Ryan wrote:
Ken, the Wikipedia "nazis" are strict about their code of conduct, but we are given the privilege of writing articles on Wikipedia. If there are problems in the content, then be sure to let me know. But don't use the content as an excuse to get away with an article that completely ignores the standards of the encylopedia that you're writing it for.



So FIX the standards...BTW...13 is written as Thirteen...and the standard is only for 1-10...just thought I'd point out the "standards".

Revising and changing history, for the purpose of "Standards", put standards in front of content.

BTW....Why should I have to let YOU know, when the original content was HISTORICALLY accurate BEFORE you edited it. Hmm?

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Ken Hower Wrote: My advice to everyone.....DO NOT purchase any of these photographs....Tim Findlay can jack off to his hearts content over his killer pictures...alone.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:29 am
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KenHower wrote:
The heading is your heading....

My formatting was how the BAND wanted it...and yours is how Ryan wanted it.


Ken,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_%28band%29

Can you imagine how huge one section would be if were just titled "1970s"? Why even have a navigational Table of Contents if you're going to lump dozens of key events inside one giant decade? The headings are created to indicate key points. That's why Wikipedia provides several different heading settings.

I love the band Racer X. If I wanted to go against their wishes, I wouldn't be here. I created a fan webpage for the band before this forum even existed - before any Racer X forum existed. How many interviews did I conduct? I can't claim any official relationship with the band, but I e-mailed the band several times as soon as I saw their e-mail addresses in the Technical Difficulties album; I wanted to make my page as accurate as possible, because RacerXBand.com did not exist as it does today. I'm not here to rewrite history. But Wikipedia is not an extention of RacerXBand.com. If Wikipedia has certain standards for their articles, then it's best to write by their standards. It just so happens that I am also a member of Wikipedia. I believe that Wikipedia standards and your content can coexist, but I felt the need to fix the format first. The content can be replaced if necessary; if I seriously felt that the content was insignificant, I wouldn't have come here with my propositions, and I wouldn't be carrying on this conversation now.

But the standards must stay, and I will always look for breaches in the policies. But it makes Wikipedia and the article look unprofessional when you have scathing statements about AR reps (for instance) inside the article. Wikipedia as a whole is supposed to be an encyclopedia - that is why there are standards for usage.

If I messed up certain key points, then we can find and correct them. You've already pointed out some areas where I've messed up the original meaning, so I've already addressed those points.

As for the "thirteen" business - now you're nitpicking. The laws of grammar are not so strict when you get above the number 10. Both the written version - "ten" - and the numerical version - "10" - are accepted.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:54 am
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Ryan wrote:
Technical Difficulties:
- released April 25, 2000, according to Amazon.com
- released April 25, 2000, according to Allmusic.com



Technical Difficulties was released December 8, 1999. You can clip, quote, copy and paste....anything you like....


But they're wrong. What?!? A source on the internet that's wrong?


So, in the make believe world....maybe they did record it in late 1999. ;)

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Ken Hower Wrote: My advice to everyone.....DO NOT purchase any of these photographs....Tim Findlay can jack off to his hearts content over his killer pictures...alone.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:58 am
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Once again...There's Ryan's world...and Racer X's world.


It's pretty simple...I no longer endorse the Wikipedia version of history. It takes me A LOT less time.


Now go screw up Motley Crue's site too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motley_Crue

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:02 am
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Ryan wrote:
But the standards must stay, and I will always look for breaches in the policies. But it makes Wikipedia and the article look unprofessional when you have scathing statements about AR reps (for instance) inside the article. Wikipedia as a whole is supposed to be an encyclopedia - that is why there are standards for usage.



When exactly will you wake from your slumber to realize that you didn't JUST fix "standards".....you re-wrote and deleted history references. How they were worded, could have been changed...instead of completely DELETING IT!

BTW....The A and R story, is directly from Jeff...word for word....and I might add, helps explains THEIR frustration at not getting signed. But I guess that's not historically relevant.

Oh..that's right..I forgot....Structure is more important than historical information. :roll:

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:09 am
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And Ryan....Nice analogy...comparing the content of KISS with Racer X. :shock:

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:10 am
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Hey Ryan...


I'm curious...Why did Scott Travis turn down Racer X and all their musical abilities to be in Hawk?

I mean...That sounds like dumb thing to do, considering that Racer X had way more potential.

I guess I'll have to scroll back through "unstandardized" version to find out why.

:roll:


Meat my ass....It got wiped out.

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Ken Hower Wrote: My advice to everyone.....DO NOT purchase any of these photographs....Tim Findlay can jack off to his hearts content over his killer pictures...alone.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:14 am
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Gilbert and Alderete did NOT recruit Martin.

Recruiting, implies they actively seeked Martin....NOT true. But hey...us college edumacated people don't know squat about gremmaer.

I defy you to find one thesaurus that considers RECRUITED a sustituition for Decided.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:20 am
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Ryan wrote:
Why even have a navigational Table of Contents if you're going to lump dozens of key events inside one giant decade? The headings are created to indicate key points. That's why Wikipedia provides several different heading settings.



Yeah...and when a band has been around for 3 DECADES....They DESERVE to have their history broken down by decade if THEY so choose...not Ryan.

When you've been around for that long....chop up your own table of contents.

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Ken Hower Wrote: My advice to everyone.....DO NOT purchase any of these photographs....Tim Findlay can jack off to his hearts content over his killer pictures...alone.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:27 am
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Of course, you don't have to endorse the article. It would be nice if you helped, but I'm not going to stop trying until the article becomes a featured article; that seemed like a lofty goal to reach when I first saw the article.

The AR story can be rewritten without the jab. "What do AR reps know," is not an encylopedic statement, it is the subjective input of the person writing the article. The story is not gone forever; it's been permanently saved in the history list. I merely pushed it aside so I could continue with the rest of the article.

I wasn't comparing KISS with Racer X. Just their articles. The person who wrote the KISS article has each key point in the band's existence outlined by the headings; like I said, if it was just "1970s" and "1980s," the article would look scattered, and the key events would be buried. For the record, Queen and Megadeth's articles were recently nominated to be included as a featured article, and their Table of Contests are both sorted by key events. Most featured articles have similar formatting, including The Beatles, which is where I went to reference the formatting for a band article.

I'll edit the Hawk story back into the mix. I intended to, but pushed it aside, just as I pushed the AR story aside. This isn't the permanent version. By that same ticket, you could also go back to the unedited version to see Khower's opinions on AR reps and the unparalleled musicianship of Racer X which outdid all of their peers- but keep it a secret from the "Wikipedia nazis" or you might find a rather large tag on the top of your article about violating the NPOV statute.

Recruit does not mean "pursue". Recruit: choose, enlist, select. Racer X "chose" Jeff Martin for the position. Racer X "enlisted" the services of Jeff Martin. Racer X "selected" Jeff Martin to sing for the band. Racer X recruited Jeff Martin.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:28 am
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Ryan wrote:
Of course, you don't have to endorse the article. It would be nice if you helped, but I'm not going to stop trying until the article becomes a featured article; that seemed like a lofty goal to reach when I first saw the article.


Why would I help...after you single handidly, undone everything that I did.....Fuck off.

Just please...Post the title THE HISTORY OF RACER X - Interpretation by Ryan (some details, while not historically accurate, do reflect the standards upheld by the Wikipedia community.)

Ryan wrote:
The AR story can be rewritten without the jab. "What do AR reps know," is not an encylopedic statement


Correct...it wasn't an "encylopedic" statement...it was a JEFF MARTIN statement.

Ah..your right...WTF does he know about their history.


Ryan wrote:
I wasn't comparing KISS with Racer X. Just their articles. The person who wrote the KISS article has each key point in the band's existence outlined by the headings; like I said, if it was just "1970s" and "1980s," the article would look scattered, and the key events would be buried. For the record, Queen and Megadeth's articles were recently nominated to be included as a featured article, and their Table of Contests are both sorted by key events. Most featured articles have similar formatting, including The Beatles, which is where I went to reference the formatting for a band article.



BEATLES, QUEEN, MEGADETH and KISS....Wake up dude. Those bands sold more records/CD by people replacing scratched records than Racer X has sold worldwide.


Ryan wrote:
I'll edit the Hawk story back into the mix. I intended to, but pushed it aside, just as I pushed the AR story aside.


You're back peddling....Why would you "push them aside"? Why would you delete information, then put it back in "later?" Why not LEAVE IT ALONE.

If I didn't mention it...you would have NEVER put it back in.


Ryan wrote:
Khower's opinions on AR reps and the unparalleled musicianship of Racer X which outdid all of their peers- but keep it a secret from the "Wikipedia nazis" or you might find a rather large tag on the top of your article about violating the NPOV statute.


I'm so scared. Listen....You know I fucking formatted it....and you KNOW I interviewed them for the information. I think I'll find something you did...delete some shit....re-write some shit and then completely reformat it without talking to you....see how you like it.



Ryan wrote:
Recruit does not mean "pursue". Recruit: choose, enlist, select. Racer X "chose" Jeff Martin for the position. Racer X "enlisted" the services of Jeff Martin. Racer X "selected" Jeff Martin to sing for the band. Racer X recruited Jeff Martin.



It's not the correct word. Racer X did not specifically recruit Jeff Martin. You can make all the implications that you want...and play 6 degrees of seperation until your blue in the face....but in the REAL WORLD...when you recruit someone....you are recruiting THAT person.

If the EMPLOYER posts on MONSTER...They are RECRUITING FOR THE POSITION.

If the employer calls you, they are RECRUITING YOU, for the position.

If IBM posts a job on MONSTER, and you send your resume...you can't tell INTEL...."Hey...I was recruited by IBM...."


Racer X enlisted Mike Varney's assistance to RECRUIT "A" singer, not Jeff Martin. The word recruiting, implies they specifically were after Jeff. Not true, at all.

But hey...who am I to intrude on Standards.....

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Ken Hower Wrote: My advice to everyone.....DO NOT purchase any of these photographs....Tim Findlay can jack off to his hearts content over his killer pictures...alone.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:45 am
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KenHower wrote:
Why would I help...after you single handidly, undone everything that I did.....Fuck off.


My John Alderete and The Scream edits were changed the day after I made them. That's the nature of Wikipedia. Articles aren't permanent, and they're not locked. The truth is, the Racer X article needed formatting; I don't believe that I went overboard with the edits, but I understand that you're angry that some of the content was lost in the mix. The content can always be added back, and I'm working to do that. But don't take it personal when a Wikipedia editor does his best to improve the format of the article. The content can be restored quite easily. This is not a permanent adjustment; the only thing I intended to be permanent was the formatting.

If I removed some pieces of content, then I apologize and I will work to re-integrate them into the article. I've already said that I have no problem working the original content back into the mix. I approached this article with the best of intentions.

I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you. Why would I want to do that? In the five years that you've known me, have I ever been the person to stomp on your territory with the intent of malice? I will certainly edit the content back into the article, but the format needed to be changed, so I changed it. Some words were lost or changed in the mix, and some of the grammar was not proper. I admit that I overlooked many things, too. But you're not doing any good by throwing around the F word and challenging Wikipedia's policies. I think you've got to respect their standards.

I understand your position; you thought your article was perfect, so you were hesitant to change. But why wouldn't you want to improve the article so it satisfies all parties? If it meets Wikipedia standards, but has the original content, then it's a perfect article. The dilemma here is that your article had the content, but lacked the standards; mine has the standards, but lacks some of the original content. There's no middle ground here; I'm going to restore the original *content* piece by piece in a way that best fits with Wikipedia's standards on articles. I don't think it does good for any of us to hold a grudge just because we're at a conflict of interest. Many of my articles on Wikipedia were changed; I am a member of the Wikipedia Mixed Martial Arts Project, so I subject myself and my articles to that same scrutiny every day. As I said before, the content can always be worded back into the article. I'm not asking you to come behind me and fix all the areas that I messed up; but if you're dissatisfied with the content, then I'll see to it that the content is restored in such a manner that both parties can be satisfied.

I've already changed many areas of which you brought up. It should be clear that I edited the article so it could reach the best of its potential.

Quote:
I'm so scared. Listen....You know I fucking formatted it....and you KNOW I interviewed them for the information. I think I'll find something you did...delete some shit....re-write some shit and then completely reformat it without talking to you....see how you like it.


There's a difference between good faith edits and vandalism.

Quote:
It's not the correct word. Racer X did not specifically recruit Jeff Martin. You can make all the implications that you want...and play 6 degrees of seperation until your blue in the face....but in the REAL WORLD...when you recruit someone....you are recruiting THAT person.

If you post on MONSTER...you are RECRUITING FOR THE POSITION.

If the employer calls you, they are RECRUITING YOU, for the position.

Racer X enlisted Mike Varney's assistance to RECRUIT "A" singer, not Jeff Martin. The word recruiting, implies they specifically were after Jeff. Not true, at all.


Ok, Ken, I apologize for changing the word. I felt that "recruit" was just as fitting as "settle on", and I still feel that the word is interchangable for this instance, but I can change the original wording back if you really believe it to be best.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:52 am
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If Ken wrote the article based on first hand interviews with the band and it was all fine to begin with, why does it need changing? Just seems like pointless busy work, especially if you're prone to making errors like those Ken has pointed out.

Personally, I don't think the people reading it, i.e. the ones who actually matter, are gonna care if they see "..." in a quote or be like "OMG it's written '10' but wikipedia standards suggest 'ten' what do I do??? :shock: ".

If it ain't broke, don't bust it.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:43 am
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If I make errors, people can just as well come behind me and correct the ones that I overlooked. That's how Wikipedia works. I didn't just come back and change the grammar and move things around; I put Racer X's entire catalog on Wikipedia, and I also added the customary template to the top of Racer X's article so the page looks like every other professional band on Wikipedia. There are a few things that, if left untouched, would have been tagged. First would be the failure to comply by Wikipedias NPOV standards; I went into the history list and noticed that someone went in and took out "weasel words". Second would be copyediting; some of the grammar was wrong, or wouldn't have worked. Third - which is something that is hard to do unless your subject is popular - would be failure to cite references.

I can work all day, if need be, to go in there and look for small details that were left out of this latest version. But I took the time because I like the band, like Wikipedia, and felt that the Wikipedia standards should at least be implemented for the band's article to ever be taken seriously. Like I said before, I apologize to Ken and the people that worked on the article that some bits of information were overlooked, but if I didn't care, I'd let the article stay as it is. Which is not the case.

Here's what I added back into the article:
- the AR rep, "Moonage Daydream" story, but it is done without a jab at AR reps
- how Travis got in contact with RX
- the Doug Marks salary story
- the release of 1992's Live Extreme Volume 2

Here's what I clarified:
- that Ex. Volume 1 and 2 were not sold together
- the Paul Gilbert responded to Snakebyte via telephone call
- that the "Lynch lick" in question is from Lady Killer
- that Martin lived in Phoenix and did not write songs w/ Racer X in Los Angeles
- that the SOD 2 album was done to promote GH

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Last edited by Ryan on Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:36 pm
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Like I said....Go work on Motley Crue's site next...


Because according to you....it's fucked up.


A) you did NOT improve the format by any measurable standard. In fact, you made it LESS clear to a reader coming in, when the chronological order of events occurred. To compare the Racer X content to KISS or Queen is ridiculous. Not only that...your format goes AGAINST what was discussed. If you'd asked...you would have known.

B) You created Grammatical and paragraph errors, that didn't exist.

C) You deleted content that was written by the band and told by the band, to help tell their story.

D) You changed words and sentence structure, without a clear grasp of their meaning. The lack of complete understanding of word meaning and editing, changed the meaning of sentences. Example: Eliminating an entire series of sentences to explain the transformation of Black Cloud into the Scream, you implied that Bruce, John AND Scott, went on to form The Scream. That is NOT accurate....Scott was LONG GONE before Black Cloud transformed into the Scream.

E) You bypassed the person who created it, knowing who created it without ONE conversation. I could give a RATS fucking ass about "WIKIPEDIA" NPOV standards. I care about the CONTENT. Every single WORD and every single story, could have been fixed with a conversation with me PRIOR to touching any of it.

Basically Ryan, your persuit of "Wikipedia" perfection, stripped the story of Racer X and created inaccuracies to the history. While your intentions may have been good, you pretty much screwed up an online relationship through overzealousness.

What you SHOULD have done, is contacted me personally and gone through through the story, PARAGRAPH by PARAGRAPH to discuss each perceived "violation" and asked me how it should be worded so that the original story remained INTACT, but the glorious standards were still met.

Adding the albums at the bottom....THAT, is added value.

Butchering the story by removing content, poor choices in words and adding grammatical errors is NOT added value.


If you pulled a stunt like this at work, in the REAL world...You'd need a recruiter....because you would have been fired. That's no joke.

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Ken Hower Wrote: My advice to everyone.....DO NOT purchase any of these photographs....Tim Findlay can jack off to his hearts content over his killer pictures...alone.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:24 pm
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Ryan wrote:
I can work all day, if need be, to go in there and look for small details that were left out of this latest version.



Now you're left scrambling like a mouse collecting fallen cheese crumbs because you came in with dynomite....blew up the story, which destroyed it.

That's the absolute problem with WIKIPEDIA....anyone, including people without the proper skills or knowledge....and come in and blow up anything like. If someone who knows the story doesn't catch it....then the article is hollow and inaccurate, and nobody knows.

EVERY SINGLE edit.....should have been a MINOR edit....in order to meet those "Standards". Not..."Let me change everything...and spend all day trying to fix what I fucked up.

Ryan...do yourself and anyone who ever wants to read about the band....Go BACK to the previous version.....and fix 10 and TEN one sentence at a time.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:32 pm
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I've already gone back to the previous version and compared the drafts, Ken. I've carried over the information into the new draft. All the information that you didn't see, is there. There are a few areas which I had to leave out because they violated the neutral point of view standards.

I think you're making mountains out of molehills. If you read through the current draft, you'll notice that your information is still there. You can complain about so-called grammatical errors, but I sifted through many of them in the original draft. If you dispute this, I could turn our articles over to an administrator at Wikipedia to see which article better conforms to the encyclopedia's standards, and which one is more neatly organized.

I went through the trouble to organize the draft, and reworded some sentences that either breached the NPOV standard, or sounded sensationalist in nature. You said yourself that the content is most important; I admit and apologize that a few things were left out of my draft, but it didn't take me more than 10 minutes to go back and restore those pieces of data. The result is an article that is (1) broken up into appropriate subsections, (2) fit with Discography and band templates, (3) is devoid of NPOV infractions, (4) has been copyedited, (5) has had all of the album titles italicized.

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Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:38 pm
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