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 A Clump of Condor Cells 
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Just a brief post to say I won't be posting on this topic again. Sandman has sadly reverted to his old ways of calling people stupid and referring to them as Nazis. On the other hand, SpeedDemon and GTRMAN seem to have no grasp of simple biology. I suggest all of you go back and re-read my post about the distinction between the beginning of a human life (conception ... this is not a debateable point, it is scientific fact) and when that human life becomes a "person". One can certainly debate what moral significance to assign to the life of a "pre-person" (equal to or less than that assigned to an adult), but to claim it isn't a life is delusional. Similarly, the claim that the zygote is part of a woman's body (as opposed to living inside it) is scientifically invalid and ridiculous on its face.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:39 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
Ryan wrote:
Yeah, that's kind of a backwards situation... you get fined for harming the egg of an endangered specie of eagle but there are almost one million human abortions performed per year here in the US.


Humans are endangered?

Did momma Condor agree with her egg being destroyed?


Oh right. An endangered specie of birds is given more protectoral rights than human beings. Rolling Eyes

I forgot to mention that the spotted owl invented the lightbulb and the California Condor was the prophet of Islam. Twisted Evil

GTRMAN wrote:
I pay little mind to abortion as it should be a woman's PERSONAL choice as it is HER body. Not only that, but it has not been proven to be killing a living human being.


Unborn fetuses are given enough rights to be considered a human if they are murdered - see the Scott Peterson case, and see "Laci and Connor's Law" aka Unborn Victims of Violence Act aka HR 1997.

How this government could pass legislation which bans "unlawful" killing of fetuses while allows "lawful" killing of fetuses is completely beyond me - but it goes to prove that legislation can and will be passed to humanize the fetus.

Speed_DemonX wrote:
Sandman wrote:
Speed_DemonX wrote:
You're still ignoring the fact that a blastocyst is exactly the same as a cell from any other part of your body.


No it's not. Any other cell in my body is not an entire organism. YOU were once at the stage of being a blastocyst. YOU!! No one can say that about a cell from someone's body (unless they're a clone, but even then, it wasn't like it was just a cell that developed into an adult). No one can say, I used to be a blood cell. But everyone can say, I used to be a blastocyst .


Yes it is! Same DNA, therefore, according to you, it is a human. It is my understanding that given the right conditions, stem cells (primitive cells) can become any type of cell, including blastocysts (yes, I know a blastocyst is a clump of cells). Which is why anti-choicers are so pissed about stem cell research.


What Sandman probably means is "possessing the equipment of a human". Magic doesn't poof the organs into our body - we grow them naturally. These organs exist in our genetic code, and they will grow if our life / nutritional cycle is not aborted. However, comparing a blastocyst with a skin cell or blood cell is completely ignorant. I don't suppose that a blood cell has ever been proven to grow into a human being? A blood cell is a product of the human being, not a seperate being itself.

Anti-choicers (the pro-responsibility crowd) are pissed about stem cell research because it threatens the development of a human being. Humans would be aborted for science - sacrificed for scientific research. Pro-lifers can't be pro-embryonic stem cell research because it would require aborting a fetus.

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Last edited by Ryan on Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:32 am, edited 6 times in total.



Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:44 pm
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i think there's enough info and what not for people to make up their minds. With that said i think this thread should be locked as it's getting nowhere.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:53 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
it has not been proven to be killing a living human being.
Would you concede then, that it has also not been disproven? If so, by all means, you obviously have every right to your opinion on this subject, as does everyone. I'm not knocking you for that.
But like I said, I'm guessing you don't like erring on the side of caution on critical matters such as these. Am I wrong?


But I am taking the stance on "erring on the side of caution". I don't believe in violating a woman's right to choose what she can do with her own body. A very basic and important right if you ask me.
Let me define for you what I mean by "err on caution's side" since you've obviously chosen to define it in very different terms.

What I mean to ask is:
In arriving at your conclusion on this issue, have you ever given thought to the notion that the fetus growing in the potential mother's womb is a seperate entity in & of itself, even if you've eventually decided that it isn't?

A direct question that only deserves a direct answer. You owe me no explanation, and I won't give you any crap, whatever your answer may be.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:41 pm
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TheSurgeon wrote:
Just a brief post to say I won't be posting on this topic again. Sandman has sadly reverted to his old ways of calling people stupid and referring to them as Nazis.

Point taken. I just got pissed off.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:45 pm
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Ryan wrote:
Pro-lifers can't be pro-embryonic stem cell research because it would require aborting a fetus.

And it's really important to point out that dead babies are not the only source of stem cells. You can also get them from umbilical cords and bone marrow. Embyonic stem cell research is bad because it kills someone to get the cells. But stem cell research is not bad per se.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:54 pm
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Rich L. wrote:
But like I said, I'm guessing you don't like erring on the side of caution on critical matters such as these. Am I wrong?

Rich, I know you're not asking me, but here's what that phrase means to me in this context: If the pro-choicers think aren't certain what constitutes a "person," or are not sure that all human beings are actually "people," then erring on the side of caution would mean, since you're not sure, don't kill it.

As an illustratin, if you see someting moving in the bushes, and you think there's a possiblity it's an innocent person, you wouldn't fire a gun into them. The only circumstance where it would be moral to allow somoene to exercise their "choice" to shoot into the bushes is if you knew with absolute certainty there wasn't an innocent person in them.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:02 pm
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Sandman, you are fully entitled to disagree with me. But why is it if I disagree, I have my head up my ass? You are so rude. You care about all of these unborn babies, but you treat alive humans like dog shit. You need to re-think your behavior. What I was trying to say is sometimes those "abortion" pics that you pick up from pro life agencies, use pictures of dead babies that had NOTHING to do with abortion. They take dead babies, some are even miscarried and they cut them up and make HORRIFIC pictures with them. What I am saying, so take your head out of your you-know-where, is that they are pictures of dead babies, but you have no way of proving (and neither do I), where those pictures are from and if they are staged to enrage the person who is looking. They are very powerful and they are very convincing, and the pro-lifers know this.

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:46 am
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Bitchen wrote:
Sandman, you are fully entitled to disagree with me. But why is it if I disagree, I have my head up my ass?

I'm just calling like I see it. Plenty of others on this board have expessed the same sentiment. I'm actually late into the ring.

Bitchen wrote:
You are so rude. You care about all of these unborn babies, but you treat alive humans like dog shit.

[Let's see, what would I say if I were GTRMAN??] Prove to me that you're a human! DNA? What that does that prove!

Bitchen wrote:
What I was trying to say is sometimes those "abortion" pics that you pick up from pro life agencies, use pictures of dead babies that had NOTHING to do with abortion. They take dead babies, some are even miscarried and they cut them up and make HORRIFIC pictures with them. What I am saying, so take your head out of your you-know-where, is that they are pictures of dead babies, but you have no way of proving (and neither do I), where those pictures are from and if they are staged to enrage the person who is looking. They are very powerful and they are very convincing, and the pro-lifers know this.

Let's say you're right, (which you aren't). How do you think real aborted people look? How are they supposed to look when they're dismembered or chemically burned to death?

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Last edited by Sandman on Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:20 am
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jesus loves you

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:21 am
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A fertilized egg is indisputably human... does anyone seriously think it could grow into a walrus, a zebra... how many fertilized human eggs have grown into any species other than a human?


Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:56 am
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Bitchen wrote:
You are so rude. You care about all of these unborn babies, but you treat alive humans like dog shit.

By the way, the unborn are both alive and human. We have no right to treat them like dog shit. But unlike me, they can't post to this board and call you on it.

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:47 pm
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Is this the description of a murder?

Judge for yourself. Below are instructions from actual abortionist training material (pdf scan of doc):


Classic D&E is accomplished by dismembering the fetus inside the uterus with instruments and removing the pieces through an adequately dilated cervix.

However, most surgeons find dismemberment at 20 weeks and beyond to be difficult due to the toughness of fetal tissues at this stage of development. Consequently, most late second trimester abortions are performed by an induction method.

....

[so now they give a description of the D&X procedure]

The surgical assistant places an ultrasound probe on the patient’s abdomen and scans the fetus, locating the lower extremities. ... The surgeon introduces a large grasping focep through the vaginal and cervical canals into the corpus of the uterus. He moves the tip of the instrument carefully towards the fetal lower extremities. When the instrument appears on the sonogram screen, the surgeon is able to open and close its jaws to firmly and reliably grasp the lower extremity.

...

With a lower extremity in the vagina, the surgeon uses his fingers to deliver the opposite lower extremity, then the torso, the shoulders and the upper extremities.

The skull lodges in the internal cervix. Usually there is not enough room for it to pass through. The fetus is oriented dorsum or spine up.

At this point, the right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left hand along the back of the fetus and "hooks" the shoulders of the fetus with the index and ring fingers (palm down). Next he slides the tip of the middle finder along the spine towards the skull while applying traction to the shoulders and lower extremities. The middle finger lifts and pushes the anterior cervical lip out of the way.

While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of blunt Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down, along the spine and under the middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger.

Reassessing the proper placement of the closed scissors tip and safe evaluation of the cervix, the surgeon then forces the scissors into the base of the skull or into the foramen magnum. Having safely entered the skull, he spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening.

The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction catheter [a fancy vacuum cleaner] into this hole and evacuates the skull content [the brain].

The surgeon finally removes the placenta with forceps and scrapes the uterine wall with a large Evans and 14 mm suction curette. The procedure ends.

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:25 pm
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I get what you are saying about a 20 week abortion. But, there is no dismemberment of an embryo. It is the size of a head of a pin to the size of a small diamond. It doesn't have feet or anything yet. It just is dislodged from the uterus. What about that kind?

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:36 pm
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Bitchen wrote:
I get what you are saying about a 20 week abortion. But, there is no dismemberment of an embryo. It is the size of a head of a pin to the size of a small diamond. It doesn't have feet or anything yet. It just is dislodged from the uterus. What about that kind?


They're that small, unless you're thinking of the morning after pill sort of thing. You can watch the video and see how big they are compared to coins.

There is a sense in which it's easy for one to think that a human being that small, and having much of his body still yet undeveloped, that killing him isn't really a moral wrong. But probably one of the best ethical barometers we have is to treat others the way we'd want to be treated ourself. That's sort of universal across cultures.

So let's ask ourselves, "Would we care one way or the other if someone aborted us?" It's quite possible we'd say, "Well, it's debatable if I'd even have consciousness. So as long as the killing occurred early in the pregnancy, it would probably be okay." Well, let me ask you this: "How would such an act affect the life you're living right now?" That might seem like a strange question, because of course, you wouldn't have a life right now.

I don't know if you saw my post earlier in the tread, but I was saying that I've tried to nail down what it is about murder that makes it an evil. And precluding considerations of agony and pain, I think, at it's crux, murder is robbing a person of the rest of his or her natural lifespan. It also potentially robs friends and family of his or her companionship and causes them great grief. So with that understanding, it seems killing a young person is actually a greater crime than killing an older person.

The things we observe when we examine a human being shortly after conception are for the most part, temporary conditions. There's a lot that occurs between being one cell to being delivered. So if you look at the person and say, "Well, he can't think yet, and he's on his mom's 'life support,' and he's really small," all those things are temporary conditions. Given time, nutrition, and good fortune, they'll end up like all of us have. So it's not like they're brain dead or something where there is no hope for further development. They're exactly as developed as human beings are at that age -- no more, no less.

The first time I saw the footage in that abortion video, I was struck with the thought that I was once that little and growing within my mother. And if I had been aborted at that time, that would have been a real crime against me, for I would not be here to enjoy arguing with and insulting you guys. :lol:

You know, in the whole scheme of the universe, we're smaller than a speck in space. In fact, our solar system is smaller than a speck in space. Size does not determine value in a moral sense. C.S. Lewis argued this point, pointing out that small living beings are much more valuable than huge heaps of dead matter. If I dig a hole with a shovel, no one senses any moral rule has been violated. But if I use that same shovel to dig a hole in the stomach of a human being, obviously I've committed an egregious act. What type of thing something is is very important when considering matters of morality like these. And regarding size, no one argues that large people have more rights than smaller people (except Randy Newman in "Short People" :) ). Size is irrelevant in regard to murder.

You know, another thing to consider is that placing a milestone age between conception and birth where we bestow onto someone rights is sort of tough. (Can that even be done if rights are inalienable??) I’ve never heard anyone propose a milestone marker that couldn’t also be used to disqualify some people living outside the womb of human rights. I don’t think we should even be going there because there is no clear basis for doing so, and I think it reduces human worth to the (sometimes self-serving) perspective of others.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:00 am
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I think that there can be a line drawn. To me, there's a clear difference between a fertilized egg and a fully conscious being. I personally favor the appearance of a fully functional nervous system to be a sensible line in the sand... the ability to have some rudimentary awareness would seem to me to be a good point to consider a developing clump of cells to be a person as opposed to mere tissue.


Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:17 am
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[/quote]
Anti-choicers (the pro-responsibility crowd) are pissed about stem cell research because it threatens the development of a human being. Humans would be aborted for science - sacrificed for scientific research. Pro-lifers can't be pro-embryonic stem cell research because it would require aborting a fetus.[/quote]

I have been out of the posts for awhile due to an ill family member, but I am very interested in how there have been some people who have had time to point out simple biology and true facts like GTRMAN. He makes good points. I think because of how annoying people like Oli, Rich and Ryan are, they pushed me to get angry and a lot of people in here have seen me that way. Maybe they can understand now that these people are annoying. Sandman has been name calling all through this thread. Wimp, uneducated, etc. I have seen. It has been very rude. I have been doing thinking and I think I have reacted because I can't get over how whenever I say something, even if it is put nicely, these four guys jump all over you and put you down for being WRONG and STUPID. However, when I give it back, I am the bad one because I am new. I am not used to such low class behavior and I felt it was only fair to give it back. When I am being bullied, I feel it is only fair to bully the bully back.

I am glad now that others see the problem with these guys. I have received interesting PM's from people who know how these guys are and have advised me on it. I wish the lookey loos who know what I am talking about would speak up, but they are sick of dealing with the unmagnificent four themselves. I feel like we are in a play yard at school and the bullies are trying to take over. I have been trying to put my finger on it and I figured out that the juvenilles who are writing (ages 15 and 16, are smart, but they are not fully educated yet on manners or true life). They sling facts that they have all day to look up on the internet out at us, but since the others are busy, have lives or have to deal with families, we just let it happen because we don't want to waste time on juvenille nonsense.

I have been advised to be nice. I have been trying to be nice lately, but for what? Why should I when I see others blatantly be incredibly rude and get away with it. I am pleased that others are calling them on it and not just me. It is about time that they spoke out. Sandman called someone in here a wimp, but they aren't for speaking out. Good for you.

Being a jew myself, I am appalled that you, Sandman, would equate abortion with Nazi Germany. My grandmother lost 12 brothers and sisters who were alive and she actually knew their names and played with them. They were all gassed. To equate an unborn fetus to the horrific loss of actually ALIVE humans is wrong. You see it as a holocaust of some sort, fine, go ahead, but don't equate it to the horror that my grandmother faced when she watched her family be hauled off and suffocated.

This thread is starting to make me feel sick. The anti choice people are angry at the pro choicers and will do anything to make their point. I still feel that if you don't like it, then don't have one, don't make babies unless you want to take care of them, offer your money and services to babies who are kept because most single mothers never get any help after their babies are born, and keep your head out of a woman's uterus. No woman should be enslaved to being a husk for making a baby against her wishes. And that may be horrific, but to take away her choice is more horrific to the life that exists--the woman's.

Also, about the above quote: You are wrong again Ryan, not that you will ever admit you are wrong, but stem cells are not just from aborted fetuses, they are mostly from the creation of fertilized eggs that are frozen for fertility clinic purposes. And when the woman doesn't need them anymore, the clinics can use them for science, but because the anti choicers are not all fully educated on this like GW, they think it is only aborted fetuses and they vote down stem cell research....but the fact is that the clinic is going to just throw the fertilized egg away anyway, so why not use it to help people who have Parkinsons and other diseases, the alive people who need help?

Now, this was written with thought and I tried to be polite. It won't surprise me to see a rude response. We shall see.[/url]

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:55 am
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fatigueofheart wrote:
i think there's enough info and what not for people to make up their minds. With that said i think this thread should be locked as it's getting nowhere.



+1


Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:24 am
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The 'if you don't like abortions, don't have one' line misses the point entirely. It's akin to saying 'if you're against murder, don't kill anyone'.


Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:24 am
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[quote="splatter"]The 'if you don't like abortions, don't have one' line misses the point entirely. It's akin to saying 'if you're against murder, don't kill anyone'.[/quote]

True, but that is only if you see abortion of an embryo as murder. I don't. Many don't. It can be argued forever, but many pro choicers will never be convinced otherwise. Also, sometimes when you are young, you see things as black or white. There are gray areas in life. I work with youth, many of them cannot afford to have a baby. They do abort in the early stages only. I cannot judge them. That is not for me to do. It is their choice and they have to live with their decision, not me.

I also know that I work with many who have the baby after some anti choicers got to them. Those same people who are there screaming, "don't murder your baby" never come back and leave the poor woman alone and broke to raise their baby themselves.

I am curious, Sandman, Ryan......when was the last time you practiced what you preached and got out there and offered to babysit and buy food and clothes for babies born to single mothers who wanted to abort but changed their minds? It is easy to say, "don't kill your baby", but it is another to feed the baby. I also have worked with women who were religious, had their babies and resented them and wound up badly abusing or neglecting these kids. These kids' lives are horrific. I don't see too many just as upset about that as they are of the removal of an embryo.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:31 am
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