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 A Clump of Condor Cells 
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
See what's happening here, folks. People are giving something that may not even be considered "human" rights..

Right, you de-humanize, then you abuse and butcher. It's been the story of oppression throughout the ages.

If that doesn't ring true for you, read the rest of the thread.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:56 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
See what's happening here, folks. People are giving something that may not even be considered "human" rights..

Right, you de-humanize, then you abuse and butcher. It's been the story of oppression throughout the ages.


LOL.

I'm a very compassionate person. I willingly do as little harm as possible. I may not even agree with abortion. I just don't believe it should be up to me or anyone else what a woman does with her body.

At what point does a fetus or zygote become a human?

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:20 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
I'm a very compassionate person. I willingly do as little harm as possible. I may not even agree with abortion. I just don't believe it should be up to me or anyone else what a woman does with her body.

If someone rapes someone, are you going to say, "Well, I just don't believe it should be up to me or anyone else what a rapist does with his body"? The point is, there is a victim here, and it's not the woman or her doctor.

GTRMAN wrote:
At what point does a fetus or zygote become a human?

At conception. That's bilogical fact. If you don't think so, tell me what it is you think it is before it becomes a human. What sepecies? We've asked this question multiple times on this thread, but no one has dared answer.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:24 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN,

Watch the video. If you're really compassionate, it will move you.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:27 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I'm a very compassionate person. I willingly do as little harm as possible. I may not even agree with abortion. I just don't believe it should be up to me or anyone else what a woman does with her body.

If someone rapes someone, are you going to say, "Well, I just don't believe it should be up to me or anyone else what a rapist does with his body"? The point is, there is a victim here, and it's not the woman or her doctor.

GTRMAN wrote:
At what point does a fetus or zygote become a human?

At conception. That's bilogical fact. If you don't think so, tell me what it is you think it is before it becomes a human. What sepecies? We've asked this question multiple times on this thread, but no one has dared answer.


When a rapist attacks a woman(or man) they have violated that person's rights and property(body). He/she should likewise be punished. Your analogy is very poor.

Can you show me documentation as to where a zygote becomes human at conception?

No-one has dared to answer because at this time there is no definitive answer. :p

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:32 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
When a rapist attacks a woman(or man) they have violated that person's rights and property(body).

You get the point. The baby the woman is carrying is another person with his or her own unique DNA, blood type, metabolism, etc. In fact, that person may even have a penis! (Have you ever met a women whose body had one of those??) The mother has no more right to abuse that child inside the womb than she does outside of the womb.

I have no desire to control what a woman, or anyone else, does with her body. What do I care? But once one starts using his or her body to harm another, like in rape or abortion, we do have a legitimate interest in controlling them. In actuality, it isn't usually the mother who performs the actual murder. It's the medical personnel.

GTRMAN wrote:
Can you show me documentation as to where a zygote becomes human at conception?

Any Biology text book will tell you the life of a new organism begins at conception. The DNA is as the DNA will always be. A new unique individual, of whatever species, has begun. Do you have a different understanding?

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:56 pm
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Godzilla
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Making a Person Property
http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-I-2-property.html

In 1857, the United States Supreme Court, through the majority opinion of Roger B. Taney, in the case, Dred Scott v. Sanford ruled that blacks, "had no rights which the white man was bound to respect; and that the negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit. He was bought and sold and treated as an ordinary article of merchandise and traffic, whenever profit could be made by it." According to the Supreme Court, Dred Scott and the rest of the African-American population were not persons, they were property. It would be eight years before their ruling would be reversed, first through the 13th Amendment that outlawed slavery, and then expanded through the 14th Amendment which gave broad rights of citizenship to all persons born or naturalized in the U.S.

116 years after Dred Scott, the Supreme Court once again ruled that a specific group of human beings were not persons, but property under the law. Roe v. Wade, argued on much the same lines as Dred Scott, remains with us to this day.

From an ideological perspective, there are many connections between abortion and slavery. Both fit the classic "pro-choice" model. Against Slavery? Don't Own a Slave! Against Abortion? Don't Have One! Lost in both equations is the victim, the human being who is made the property of another human being and thereby stripped of all rights of personhood. The mistreatment leveled at both victims is justified on the premise that they're not really people. They're sub-human. Justice Taney in the Dred Scott decision argued that "it is too clear for dispute, that the enslaved African race were not intended to be included, and formed no part of the people who framed and adopted [the Declaration of Independence]" Justice Blackmun, in the Roe decision, likewise concluded that the protections guaranteed in the 14th Amendment were certainly not to be extended to unborn children. Thomas Jefferson believed that, "in reason, [blacks are] much inferior [to whites]... and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless and anomalous."1 The late Carl Sagan, was fond of comparing unborn children to, "segmented worms," "fish," "tadpoles," "reptiles," and "pigs". Dehumanization, in both instances, is the language of abuse.

Slavery and abortion also receive the same kind of "spin" from those who would turn vice into virtue. Thomas Jefferson argued that the most loving thing he could do for his slaves was to keep them enslaved. In the book, The Constitutional Principles of Thomas Jefferson, Caleb Patterson writes that "it was Jefferson's humane feeling for his slaves that kept him from freeing them. To free the ordinary slave was not very different from starting him on the road to starvation. Or as Jefferson put it... like abandoning children." Today, people argue that the most loving thing an impoverished mother can do for her children is to abort them.

Slavery and abortion are both institutions where those in power have the legal right to abuse or destroy those who are not in power. Slavery and abortion are both institutions with huge financial interests, and slavery and abortion are both institutions defended on the freedom to choose... Nobody is forcing you into having an abortion. Nobody is forcing you into owning a slave. Why don't you let people make their own decisions? Stop forcing your morality on me!

Despite their many similarities, there are also some real differences. While slavery was not always fatal, abortion almost always is. Where the victims of slavery were publicly visible, the victims of abortion are not. While victims of slavery could speak in their own defense, victims of abortion have no voice. Where the government was never willing to subsidize slave ownership for whites who couldn't afford slaves, abortion is often paid for with government funds.

Today, many of the people who defend abortion in principle, still try and distance themselves from it in practice. I'm personally opposed to abortion, but people should be free to make their own choices. If this is your attitude about abortion, if you think you've carved out some morally-neutral middle ground, ask yourself that same question in regard to slavery or lynching. Would you ever dare make the statement that, while you're personally opposed to lynching, you still support the rights of other men to lynch? If there was no middle ground in regard to slavery, there is no middle ground in regard to abortion. The reasons that the Supreme Court reserved itself about Dred Scott are the same reasons it should reverse itself about Roe v. Wade. Until they do, we continue to live in a society in which living persons are considered property.

1.Virginius Dabney, The Jefferson Scandals, A Rebuttal from Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:08 pm
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Godzilla

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You still have not shown how a zygote or embryo is a human.

When you can prove that, let me know. Until then, legally, it is just a bundle of cells whose fate can be determined by by nature or the mother.

Your post is cluttering the issue. We are not talking about slavery in which self-aware, free-thinking humans were subjected to the evils of involuntary servitude and bondage. Stay on topic, please.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:12 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
Your post is cluttering the issue.

I'll let everyone else be the judge of that.

Your arugment is incoherent. Become a pro-choice activist -- you'll have a lot of company.

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"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of freedom." - John F. Kennedy 1961


Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:15 pm
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
I may not even agree with abortion.
No, but I bet you'll defend it to the hilt. If that's the case, your quote is meaningless. Actions speak louder than words.

Obviously you have a brain, & you use it (usually :wink: ), but erring on the side of caution isn't part of your agenda, is it?

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:16 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
Stay on topic, please.
Actually, he's done that pretty well, as have you, I might add.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:18 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I may not even agree with abortion.
No, but I bet you'll defend it to the hilt. If that's the case, your quote is meaningless. Actions speak louder than words.

Obviously you have a brain, & you use it (usually :wink: ), but erring on the side of caution isn't part of your agenda, is it?


Yes, I will defend it as I don't believe in telling others what to do with their bodies. I have no proof of a zygote or embryo's status or viability as a human.

My words speak volumes for those who would try to understand their meaning.

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Last edited by GTRMAN on Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:19 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Your post is cluttering the issue.

I'll let everyone else be the judge of that.

Your arugment is incoherent. Become a pro-choice activist -- you'll have a lot of company.


Which part is incoherent?

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:20 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Stay on topic, please.
Actually, he's done that pretty well, as have you, I might add.


I regard the inclusion of slavery into this argument as a means to establish a reactionary knee-jerk response. It has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:21 pm
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I may not even agree with abortion.
No, but I bet you'll defend it to the hilt. If that's the case, your quote is meaningless. Actions speak louder than words.

Obviously you have a brain, & you use it (usually :wink: ), but erring on the side of caution isn't part of your agenda, is it?


Yes, I will defend it as I don't believe in telling others what to do with their bodies. I have no proof of a zygote or embryo's status or viability as a human.

My words speak volumes for those who would try to understand their meaning.
So you do agree with abortion. Why not just come out & say it? A lot of people do. You don't have to be coy.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:23 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Stay on topic, please.
Actually, he's done that pretty well, as have you, I might add.


I regard the inclusion of slavery into this argument as a means to establish a reactionary knee-jerk response. It has nothing to do with the matter at hand.
In your opinion. My statement is just opinion, too.

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Last edited by Rich on Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:24 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I may not even agree with abortion.
No, but I bet you'll defend it to the hilt. If that's the case, your quote is meaningless. Actions speak louder than words.

Obviously you have a brain, & you use it (usually :wink: ), but erring on the side of caution isn't part of your agenda, is it?


Yes, I will defend it as I don't believe in telling others what to do with their bodies. I have no proof of a zygote or embryo's status or viability as a human.

My words speak volumes for those who would try to understand their meaning.
So you do agree with abortion. Why not just come out & say it? A lot of people do. You don't have to be coy.


I pay little mind to abortion as it should be a woman's PERSONAL choice as it is HER body. Not only that, but it has not been proven to be killing a living human being.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:26 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Stay on topic, please.
Actually, he's done that pretty well, as have you, I might add.


I regard the inclusion of slavery into this argument as a means to establish a reactionary knee-jerk response. It has nothing to do with the matter at hand.
In your opinion.


That's the beautiful thing about this country... I can excercise my right to voice it and no-one can stop me or say that it's wrong. :D

But seriously. The slavery angle IS over the top in this debate. The two issues are too far removed to equate.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:27 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
I regard the inclusion of slavery into this argument as a means to establish a reactionary knee-jerk response. It has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

You know, those who can't learn anything from the moral struggles in history are doomed to repeat them. If you can't understand the relevance of the comparison to slavery, either (1) you haven't actually read and understood the argument (quite possible), (2) you're just a fanatic who only wants to shove propaganda out to deceive people (also possible), or (3) you're just stupid as shit (very, very possible). But don't act like I'm the one not making any sense.

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to be gracious to a guy who disregards every point made on this thread. Go waste someone else’s time.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:29 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
it has not been proven to be killing a living human being.
Would you concede then, that it has also not been disproven? If so, by all means, you obviously have every right to your opinion on this subject, as does everyone. I'm not knocking you for that.
But like I said, I'm guessing you don't like erring on the side of caution on critical matters such as these. Am I wrong?

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:32 pm
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