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 A Report from Terri Schiavo's Room 
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
Pablo Wablo wrote:
What caused her brain damage? I never really cared enough about the whole thing to find out.
Initially, I thought it was a car accident, but I think it had to do with cardiac arrest which some say was brought on by bulemia, others say her husband was abusive. Since Terri can't speak, we may never know.


The doctors who examined her did not recognise any signs of abuse If they had, they would have reported them to the police.. The allegations of such are the result of a smear campaign waged against Michael Schiavo by the Schindler family and their attorneys.

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Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:49 pm
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
For someone who, according to her husband wanted to die, she sure is holding on. 12 days & counting. This is insane.


You mis-state the facts.. She had expressed that she would not want to live in such a way. She didn't express that she wanted to die. You shouldn't use such misleading statements. It's beneath you.
I'm revealing irony...

And facts. :wink:

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:29 am
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
For someone who, according to her husband wanted to die, she sure is holding on. 12 days & counting. This is insane.


You mis-state the facts.. She had expressed that she would not want to live in such a way. She didn't express that she wanted to die. You shouldn't use such misleading statements. It's beneath you.
I'm revealing irony...

And facts. :wink:


You haven't reavealed anything with your statement.

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Last edited by GTRMAN on Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:32 am
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
For someone who, according to her husband wanted to die, she sure is holding on. 12 days & counting. This is insane.


You mis-state the facts.. She had expressed that she would not want to live in such a way. She didn't express that she wanted to die. You shouldn't use such misleading statements. It's beneath you.
I'm revealing irony...

And facts. :wink:


You haven't reavealed anything with your statement.
Enough to get you bent out of shape, apparently. Simmer down. You'll have your way soon enough, & it'll all be water under the bridge.

Besides, where's the proof that she said she wouldn't want to live in such a way, Mr. Facts? I don't doubt that it's possible she said it. You don't seem to have a problem hanging your hat on heresay, though.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:04 am
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
Pablo Wablo wrote:
What caused her brain damage? I never really cared enough about the whole thing to find out.
Initially, I thought it was a car accident, but I think it had to do with cardiac arrest which some say was brought on by bulemia, others say her husband was abusive. Since Terri can't speak, we may never know.


The doctors who examined her did not recognise any signs of abuse If they had, they would have reported them to the police.. The allegations of such are the result of a smear campaign waged against Michael Schiavo by the Schindler family and their attorneys.
Here's an idea. When someone outside asks about a case, try presenting both sides like I did, unpopular as they may be to you. Not just your side. That way, you'll allow the person to make up their own mind like you did. :?:

Why do I get the feeling we're beating a dead horse?

Sorry about the pun. :oops:

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:10 am
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Godzilla
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I took a few (needed) days off from this thread. I'm sorry I blew up. Obviously I got emotional. I probably read more negative into Surgeon's post than was merited.


Pablo Wablo wrote:
Sandman wrote:
Pablo Wablo wrote:
Their interests in keeping her alive are selfish. They want to keep her alive for them not her. Plain and simple.

Do you have children?

No. And I don't need to have them to have the opinion I do. :)

I totally agree.

As a parent myself, I can understand Terri's parents' desire to keep her alive even though she's severely disabled. It may look like selfishness to some, but it could also be the sort of intense love that parents have for their children. And you've got to factor in the possibility that they're genuinely not convinced Terri really would choose death over her current existence. Reports aren't that Terri is miserable.

TheSurgeon wrote:
You accuse me of ad hominem and in the same breath you call me an asshole and a bigot.

A fair observation.

TheSurgeon wrote:
But calling me an atheist ... that really hurt. Ouch.

That whole rant was to communicate how I felt beat up. I don't feel that way about you. That's why I said "if you want to play that game...." If you're an atheist, I don't have a problem with that.

Like I said, I haven't been using religion to make the case for my perspective on the Schiavo case. To me, it's a human rights issue and Christians shouldn't have the market cornered on recognizing human rights. I assume we have common ground.

GTRMAN wrote:
Why do you call everyone with beliefs which oppose yours a bigot? :?

I don't. It just seems that way. :lol:

By accusing you of bigotry, I'm in essense crying "foul." In logic, there's a thing called the genetic fallacy, where you reject an idea, not because the idea itself is poor, but because you don't like where it came from (for instance, a Catholic (which I'm not)). There's also a fallacy called ad hominem, where you attack the person making an argument rather than the argument itself (for instance, "you just want to impose your moral standards on everyone else").

I rarely try to make an ethical argument based upon Christianity, especially in a forum like this. Because obviously, not everyone takes Christian ethics for granted. So when someone turns around and accuses me of "imposing" religion on them, I really take offense, because I'm not in any way doing that. It seems as though they're reacting to a stereotype. And that's when I bring up the idea that they're just being bigoted.

By all means, take a crack at shooting down my ideas. But don't disqualify me, or Terri's parents, from the discussion because we have a religious faith. That's as uncalled for as disqualifying someone because they're an atheist. And if you see me doing that myself, please call me on it. I screw up, too.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:30 am
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Sandman,

I'm pleased to see you've calmed down.

A word of advice, if I may. If you don't want people to get the impression that the moral values which you are using to judge what is right or wrong in this case are based on your Christian faith, perhaps you shouldn't make statements implying your viewpoint is based on "God's Law".




Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Sandman wrote:
Let me add to that.

The fact of the matter is, he is taking action to kill her. Whether that's murder or not is an important moral question. And if there isn't a very, very compelling reason for her termination, then it's murder, because she isn't guilty of any capital crime.


There are MANY compelling reasons to ALLOW her to die. Yet you've ignored them all to impart your version of morality and judge others by it.

It's not MY morality, it's God's law. If you know some other basis for morality that doesn't amount to human preference, please share it for our consideration. But I know of no other that would have any force of compulsion for us to adhere to it.





Secondly, if you think being accused of forcing your religious views on others is offensive, try to imagine what my reaction was when you accused me of being the product of Nazi training.

It doesn't get much more offensive than that.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:34 am
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
For someone who, according to her husband wanted to die, she sure is holding on. 12 days & counting. This is insane.


You mis-state the facts.. She had expressed that she would not want to live in such a way. She didn't express that she wanted to die. You shouldn't use such misleading statements. It's beneath you.
I'm revealing irony...

And facts. :wink:


You haven't reavealed anything with your statement.
Enough to get you bent out of shape, apparently. Simmer down. You'll have your way soon enough, & it'll all be water under the bridge.

Besides, where's the proof that she said she wouldn't want to live in such a way, Mr. Facts? I don't doubt that it's possible she said it. You don't seem to have a problem hanging your hat on heresay, though.


Hearsay? Not at all. It was good enough for the courts, wasn't it?

BTW, I'm not bent out of shape at all. Why would you say I am? I just made a statement. :?

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:40 am
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Godzilla
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TheSurgeon wrote:
Secondly, if you think being accused of forcing your religious views on others is offensive, try to imagine what my reaction was when you accused me of being the product of Nazi training.

It doesn't get much more offensive than that.

Well, that was my "if you want to play that game" rant, but I apologize.

Have you seen that movie, Judgment at Nuremberg? A I recall, at the end of the film, one of the convicted Nazi judges says to the prosecutor in a moment of candor after the trial, "I never thought it would come to this," (or something to that effect) referring to the widespread human rights abuses that occurred in the Third Reich.

The prosecutor's response was, "It came to this when you the condemnation of the first innocent person."

Doctors and judges are not by definition ethical. It is a dangerous thing for a society to put them on a pedestal for ethical instruction.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:39 pm
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Godzilla
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Something I thought of yesterday:

For those who are so convinced that the "real Terri" died 15 years ago, the excellent movie "Awakenings" is very instructive of the limits of medical knowledge in such matters. Plus, it's a very touching film.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:43 pm
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Godzilla
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A high profile athiest comes down on Terri's side: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff1.asp

"The fundamental issue in Terri's case is disability rights — not the right to die. Throughout all the extensive media coverage of the case, there has been only slight mention — usually none at all — that nearly every major disability rights organization has filed legal briefs to prevent what they and I regard as judicial murder. The protests are not only from pro-lifers and the Christian Right.

"The courts — and the ignorant coverage by most of the media of this crucial case — have until now appallingly failed Terri Schiavo and the community of the disabled ...

"And who knows how may more innocent victims in the years ahead?""

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:48 pm
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Godzilla
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Sandman wrote:
TheSurgeon wrote:
Secondly, if you think being accused of forcing your religious views on others is offensive, try to imagine what my reaction was when you accused me of being the product of Nazi training.

It doesn't get much more offensive than that.

Well, that was my "if you want to play that game" rant, but I apologize.

On the other hand, Nazi analogies shouldn't be disregarded flippantly. The Holocaust started with propaganda to dehumanize the disabled, which led to public acceptance of court ordered murder of the disabled.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:22 pm
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Viking Kong
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Sandman wrote:
the excellent movie "Awakenings" is very instructive of the limits of medical knowledge in such matters. Plus, it's a very touching film.
That was a great movie. First one I saw, where Robert DeNiro wasn't a mafioso. :lol: He's a good actor, anyway.

I'm relieved that things have cooled down between some of us. Namely Sandman & Surgeon. Two of my favorite homies on the board, although Surgeon probably wouldn't want to affiliate himself with me. :lol:

Come to think of it, neither would my own family! :(

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:59 pm
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Rich L. wrote:
I'm relieved that things have cooled down between some of us. Namely Sandman & Surgeon. Two of my favorite homies on the board, although Surgeon probably wouldn't want to affiliate himself with me. :lol:

Come to think of it, neither would my own family! :(

"Sandman, proudly affiliated with Rich L." :lol:

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:01 pm
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Sandman wrote:
A high profile athiest comes down on Terri's side: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff1.asp


A high profile atheist who doesn't know what he's talking about ...

Quote:
By the eighth day, without water, her liver, spleen, kidneys, stomach, esophagus, tongue and eyeballs will swell and begin to crack.

All of her body's organs — by her ninth or 10th day — will have split and cracked. Not long after this agonizing ordeal, she will die.


That is absolutely untrue. Dehydration initially leads the body to shunt blood flow away from the kidneys to decrease fluid loss from urination and to maintain blood flow to the brain. Eventually, the kidneys fail and metabolic waste products that the kidneys normally excrete build up in the blood stream. This, in combination with decreasing blood pressure as blood volume decreases due to the dehydration, leads to the dysfunction of other vital organs. Concious patients lose conciousness. Muscle function deteriorates and as a result the strength of the patient's breathing gradually diminishes and the patient stops breathing. Deprived of oxygen, the heart stops shortly thereafter.

At no point to any organs swell, crack, or split. It is not an "agonizing ordeal". It is a relatively peaceful death.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:22 pm
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Rich L. wrote:
I'm relieved that things have cooled down between some of us. Namely Sandman & Surgeon. Two of my favorite homies on the board, although Surgeon probably wouldn't want to affiliate himself with me. :lol:

Come to think of it, neither would my own family! :(


I'm proud to be associated with most everyone on this board. Especially those who have strong heart-felt beliefs that they are willing to defend with well-thought-out logical arguments. You and I see eye to eye on most issues ... just not this one.

As long as people don't stoop to personal insults, I have no problems with people who don't share my viewpoint.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:31 pm
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TheSurgeon wrote:
At no point to any organs swell, crack, or split. It is not an "agonizing ordeal". It is a relatively peaceful death.

I know this is what the pro-death-to-Terri folks in the MSM are saying, but I can't help but suspect that it's just spin. Even the alternate description you offer doesn't sound "peaceful." I wouldn't wish it on any loved one.

Who doubts that if some state decided to adopt this as a method of execution, that the Supreme Court would consider it to be cruel and unusual punishment?

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:41 pm
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Uh Sandman, before you start dispensing medical knowledge to Surge, maybe you should check out his occupation in his profile. As far as the subject goes, unfortunately this is going to have an unhappy ending no matter which way it goes. It's really sad....


Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:47 pm
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Richard Tull wrote:
Uh Sandman, before you start dispensing medical knowledge to Surge, maybe you should check out his occupation in his profile. As far as the subject goes, unfortunately this is going to have an unhappy ending no matter which way it goes. It's really sad....

I know what he is, and I'm not going to bow down. Doctors can, and have, been wrong. What other means of dying are painless? Suffocation? Strange how they've given Terri morphine when it's such a "peaceful" way to go and she's in a vegetative anyway. I'm sorry, but I think too many doctors have a god complex. [EDIT: I take back this comment in a later post.] I'm not diminishing their knowledge and skills, but they aren't immune to mistakes in judgment.

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Last edited by Sandman on Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:03 am
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Viking Kong
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TheSurgeon wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
I'm relieved that things have cooled down between some of us. Namely Sandman & Surgeon. Two of my favorite homies on the board, although Surgeon probably wouldn't want to affiliate himself with me. :lol:

Come to think of it, neither would my own family! :(


I'm proud to be associated with most everyone on this board. Especially those who have strong heart-felt beliefs that they are willing to defend with well-thought-out logical arguments. You and I see eye to eye on most issues ... just not this one.

As long as people don't stoop to personal insults, I have no problems with people who don't share my viewpoint.
It's all good. Just my sorry-ass attempt at self-deprecating humor.

(If I don't do it, Wablo will.)

Isn't that right, Wablo? :wink:

Quote:
"Sandman, proudly affiliated with Rich L."

Thanks, bro. :wink:

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Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:35 am
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