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 A Report from Terri Schiavo's Room 
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Viking Kong
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If I'm ever like that-I want my wife to end it. What kind of life is that? Fuck that shit.

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:59 am
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Sandman wrote:
TheSurgeon wrote:
I'm not confused. It's a hypothetical question. And you didn't answer it ("I don't have a strong inclination either way" is a bit of a cop out and given your strong convictions about this case, more than a little hard to believe)

You ARE confused. It has nothing to do with the case, so I'm sorry I answered you. I gave you and honest answer, but frankly, it's none of your business.


Nothing to do with the case????? And you think I'm confused. :roll: :roll:

Perhaps you think that debating whether the founding fathers were Christians or Deists is more relevant?

Respecting Terri's wishes is the crux of the case. You may question her husband's account of what those wishes were. But respecting Terri's wishes is the only relevant issue in this case. What the Bible says about it is completely irrelevant. This is what you (and Terri's parents) seem to be confused about.

In this country, the wishes of the patient regarding end of life care supersede the wishes/beliefs of the family (not to mention the beliefs of protesters, politicians, and anyone else who wants to interfere). Preferably, those wishes take the form of a living will. But where no living will exists, the verbal expression of the patient's wishes to a friend or family member is equally binding (provided that there is no compelling reason to believe the witness is lying).

If you do not accept that, then you are trying to impose your religious moral beliefs onto someone else.

I agree that there is sufficient reason to doubt Michael Schiavo's credibility and I have respect for those who argue that point. But to me, acceptance of the right of a person to have their wishes respected in regards to end of life care is a litmus test ... those who do not accept that right as a given, are imposing their religious beliefs onto others. They are acting to promote their own agenda at the expense of the patient's.

That is why I do not trust Terri's parents. There is no doubt they love their daughter. But the fact that they reject out of hand the right of their daughter to have her wishes respected (as evidenced by their statement that they would not respect a living will if there was one) shows me that their love is making them act selfishly.

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:00 am
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Godzilla
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Pablo Wablo wrote:
Their interests in keeping her alive are selfish. They want to keep her alive for them not her. Plain and simple.

Do you have children?

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:43 am
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Godzilla
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TheSurgeon wrote:
Nothing to do with the case????? And you think I'm confused. :roll: :roll:

TheSurgeon wrote:
Speaking of living wills ... I'm curious what your position would be if Terri had signed a living will saying she didn't want to be kept alive in the state she is presently in.


[prepare for slam]

So which is it, ass hole? “Just curious” or “crux of the case”??

I repeat, Ad Hominem. You really sound like a bigot against people who hold religious beliefs. If you want to play that game, what gives YOU the right to shove YOUR philosophy or ethical system down MY throat? Who the fuck cares what you believe is right or wrong, you atheist? What do you know about morality? You’re just a guy with a knife. No one appointed you God.

I really don't have an opinion about living wills at this point. But evidently if I don't dogmatically bow to your "faith" that living wills are ethical, I have no place in the discussion of whether it’s ethical to stave a healthy disabled person to death! And you're a doctor?!! Heaven help us! (Nazi training??)

I didn't base any of my arguments on the Bible, so get off my back. It's not obvious to me why I would view it any differently if I were an atheist. I don't believe it's right to deprive someone of his or her life without due process of law -- at the very least a jury trial, and the option for a pardon from the governor. I don't presume you to be a Christian, but those are AMERICAN value I assumed we could call common ground.

Whether Terri’s folks believe in euthanasia or not is irrelevant to the case. Terri’s diagnosis of being in a permanently vegetative state is in question, as is her verbal “living will.” We should not be erring on the side of death. That’s the issue. We don’t err on the side of death in death penalty cases. Do we cherish the lives of criminals more than we do the disabled? (Are we disability bigots, too??) Additionally, Michael has no moral business being Terri’s guardian.

So what about the nature of these arguments is religious??

(Maybe you aren’t reading my posts as carefully as necessary to understand what I’m saying. I know they’re long, but I think you're missing something.)

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:27 am
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for a good laugh. You accuse me of ad hominem and in the same breath you call me an asshole and a bigot.

But calling me an atheist ... that really hurt. Ouch.


When you're ready to offer up logical arguments instead of personal insults, let me know.

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:42 am
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Superhero
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ohh shit :lol:


Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:55 am
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Sandman wrote:
Pablo Wablo wrote:
Their interests in keeping her alive are selfish. They want to keep her alive for them not her. Plain and simple.

Do you have children?


No. And I don't need to have them to have the opinion I do. :)

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:11 pm
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Godzilla
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SRV463 wrote:
ohh shit :lol:



ditto, LMAO :D

Time for us to put on our helmets and dive for cover.


Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:44 pm
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King Of The Monsters
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Pablo Wablo wrote:
Their interests in keeping her alive are selfish. They want to keep her alive for them not her. Plain and simple.


That´s my point exactly.

I can not assure that what you say is true. I guess you´re saying what you *think* you would want in a situation like that (I guess no one here denies the fact that living in that way sux), but (as far as I´m concerned) nobody has a statement in which Terry says that.

And that just makes things harder.

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:09 pm
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The sad tale of Terri Schiavo, minus the three ring circus
3/25/2005 3:47:50 PM, by Jonathan Gitlin

In the proud tradition of Ars, we'd like to encourage some intelligent discussion on this matter by trying to do what so many in the media have failed to do, which is actually talk about the case, rather than the circus surrounding it. Now, this case clearly raises several important issues regarding the separation of powers and the relationship between not only the federal and state governments, but also the judiciary. Such are the symptoms of a complex conflict involving technological advances, the nature of scientific knowledge, and the very definition of life.

Unless you've been in a persistent vegetative state for the last two weeks, you cannot have escaped the furor surrounding the case of Terri Schaivo. To recap, 15 years ago Terri Schaivo suffered a heart attack caused by an eating disorder. This deprived her brain of oxygen for about 14 minutes, which caused significant brain damage. Of the different cells that make up our bodies, neurons are particularly sensitive to hypoxia, and will rapidly die off. They are also notorious for their inability to regrow. Following this event, Mrs Schiavo fell into a persistent vegetative state:

A persistent vegetative state (commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death") sometimes follows a coma. Individuals in such a state have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands. For more, see: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/coma/coma.htm

Over the next few years, her husband pursued aggressive treatments to try and help his wife recover, including an experimental treatment involving the implantation of electrodes in her brain to stimulate neuronal growth. Despite these treatments, there has never been any improvement in her condition and she remains unaware, non-sentient and dependent on a feeding tube. Her husband, Michael Schaivo was close to the Schindlers, her parents, to the point where they encouraged him to begin dating, and they lived in the same house for several years.


CAT scan of a normal brain
CAT scan of Mrs. Schiavo's brainThe controversy begins in 1998. Once he realized there was no hope of a recovery, Mr Schaivo petitioned the Florida courts to remove her feeding tube, claiming that Terri would not have wanted to be kept alive in a PVS. Although her parents protested this, the court found in favor of Terri's wishes, and so began several years of legal battles, all of which were decided in favor of Terri Schaivo's right to withdraw treatment. Her parents have presented arguments to the court claiming spousal abuse, false diagnosis and that Terri's wishes had been misinterpreted. Each time, the courts in Florida have rejected these claims as lacking credibility, but backed by religious conservative right-to-life campaigners, the Schindlers have kept appealing.

In 2003, having been turned down repeatedly by the courts, the Schindlers successfully lobbied Gov. Jeb Bush to pass "Terri's Law" that would restore her feeding tube. Terri was hospitalized and the tube was replaced. The matter went back to the courts yet again, where once more the Schindler’s claims were found to be without merit. Furthermore, "Terri's Law" was struck down by the Florida Supreme Court as unconstitutional, and eventually March 18th 2005 was set as the date the feeding tube would be removed. Repeated appeals by the Schindlers failed, and on Friday 18th March the feeding tube was removed. As you likely know, congressional Republicans decided to intervene. Embattled House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) engineered special legislation over the weekend, despite Congress being in recess for Easter, that gave the Schindlers standing to bring the case before a Federal Judge. Prior to this, the federal courts had refused to hear the case, citing lack of jurisdiction. President Bush cut short one of his holidays in Texas to fly back to Washington to sign the legislation into law, citing the importance of a 'culture of life.' Critics quickly noted that Bush passed legislation in Texas in 1999 that allows hospitals to withdraw treatment from patients despite family wishes in cases where there is no hope for recovery.

From here the case moved through the federal court system, to the Eleventh Circuit court of appeal, where the Schindler's appeals were denied due to no substantial likelihood of success. In-depth details of the legal cases can be found here. Despite the claims of Terri's parents and her supporters on the religious right, each examination has shown that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Comparing a 1996 CT scan of her brain to a normal brain, it is possible to see the atrophied areas throughout the cerebral cortex (above and to the sides of the large ventricles in the centre). Although there have been calls for an MRI scan, MRIs use powerful magnets for imaging and would cause the implanted electrodes to act as a blender inside her skull.

With no higher brain function, Terri Schiavo exists in a form of limbo - able to breath uninterrupted, her eyes move and she vocalizes. According to physicians who have actually diagnosed her in person, she displays no awareness of her surroundings, is unable to swallow, and any consciousness or personality died in 1990. Campaigners to reinsert the feeding tube have claimed that she has been misdiagnosed, on the basis of 4 minutes of edited footage, allegedly showing responsiveness. They have also claimed that Michael Schaivo is only concerned with benefiting financially from Terri's death, although it must be noted that there is little money left from a malpractice settlement, he has repeatedly turned down offers of large amounts of money to walk away, and unlike the Schindlers, he has not signed any book or TV deals. Some claim that medical advances could repair her brain damage, although the irony of these claims from such vehement critics of stem cell research are not lost on your correspondent. Despite questionable medical diagnoses from afar, in reality there is no hope of any recovery in this case. Public opinion overwhelmingly rests with Michael and Terri Schiavo, although there is some distaste over simply withdrawing her feeding tube and allowing her to die from dehydration. But as euthanasia remains illegal in the US, there is no other option.

The blogosphere has been on fire over this issue, with increasingly shrill calls from commentators decrying the judiciary and Michael Schaivo. Others castigate the Republicans as false champions of states rights and limited federal government, since they were so quick to try and overrule Florida's courts.

Barring Terri Schiavo having a secret Living Will somewhere, what do you think is the appropriate solution to this matter, and what should society take away from what may be the first of many such challenges in the future?

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Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:09 pm
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Superhero
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What caused her brain damage? I never really cared enough about the whole thing to find out.

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Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:26 pm
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Viking Kong
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Pablo Wablo wrote:
What caused her brain damage? I never really cared enough about the whole thing to find out.
Initially, I thought it was a car accident, but I think it had to do with cardiac arrest which some say was brought on by bulemia, others say her husband was abusive. Since Terri can't speak, we may never know.

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Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:06 pm
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Superhero
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is she still alive? i havnt watched the news in a couple days


Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:40 pm
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Viking Kong
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Yes, but they say it will be minutes to a day. I think she's on her way out.

Where's janet "ram-rod" reno when you need her?

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Last edited by Rich on Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:47 pm
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Viking Kong
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TheSurgeon wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
Is this the record for the fastest growing thread?


Maybe the second fastest. Definitely not the fastest.
Without boobie pictures? :wink:

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Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:42 pm
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Bulemia, huh? The irony...

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Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:12 pm
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Viking Kong
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For someone who, according to her husband wanted to die, she sure is holding on. 12 days & counting. This is insane.

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Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:22 pm
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Godzilla

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Hey everyone.. Sorry I've been away..

Here's some interesting testimony from a doctor who has examined Schiavo..It's taken from the 2001 trial..
Surgeon, I'm interested in hearing your opinion on this...


"Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota, assessed Schiavo's brain function in 2001 as part of a court-ordered assessment. He was quoted in Florida Today as saying "[Schiavo] has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region."

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Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:40 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
For someone who, according to her husband wanted to die, she sure is holding on. 12 days & counting. This is insane.


You mis-state the facts.. She had expressed that she would not want to live in such a way. She didn't express that she wanted to die. You shouldn't use such misleading statements. It's beneath you.

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Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:42 pm
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Sandman wrote:
TheSurgeon wrote:
Nothing to do with the case????? And you think I'm confused. :roll: :roll:

TheSurgeon wrote:
Speaking of living wills ... I'm curious what your position would be if Terri had signed a living will saying she didn't want to be kept alive in the state she is presently in.


[prepare for slam]

So which is it, ass hole? “Just curious” or “crux of the case”??

I repeat, Ad Hominem. You really sound like a bigot against people who hold religious beliefs. If you want to play that game, what gives YOU the right to shove YOUR philosophy or ethical system down MY throat? Who the fuck cares what you believe is right or wrong, you atheist? What do you know about morality? You’re just a guy with a knife. No one appointed you God.

I really don't have an opinion about living wills at this point. But evidently if I don't dogmatically bow to your "faith" that living wills are ethical, I have no place in the discussion of whether it’s ethical to stave a healthy disabled person to death! And you're a doctor?!! Heaven help us! (Nazi training??)

I didn't base any of my arguments on the Bible, so get off my back. It's not obvious to me why I would view it any differently if I were an atheist. I don't believe it's right to deprive someone of his or her life without due process of law -- at the very least a jury trial, and the option for a pardon from the governor. I don't presume you to be a Christian, but those are AMERICAN value I assumed we could call common ground.

Whether Terri’s folks believe in euthanasia or not is irrelevant to the case. Terri’s diagnosis of being in a permanently vegetative state is in question, as is her verbal “living will.” We should not be erring on the side of death. That’s the issue. We don’t err on the side of death in death penalty cases. Do we cherish the lives of criminals more than we do the disabled? (Are we disability bigots, too??) Additionally, Michael has no moral business being Terri’s guardian.

So what about the nature of these arguments is religious??

(Maybe you aren’t reading my posts as carefully as necessary to understand what I’m saying. I know they’re long, but I think you're missing something.)


Why do you call everyone with beliefs which oppose yours a bigot? :?

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Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:47 pm
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