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 A Report from Terri Schiavo's Room 
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Godzilla
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TheSurgeon wrote:
You raise an interesting point. I'm going to ignore, for the moment, the distinction between brain dead (she's not) and being in a permanent vegatative state (which she is), and assume she is essentially "dead."
Actually, that's not a difinitive opinion. This affidavit from a neurologist explains that "within a reasonable degree of medical certainy, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a minimally conscious state than a persistant vegetative state," a significant legal distinction.

TheSurgeon wrote:
It is still important to most people that their last wishes be respected when they die. If your last wishes were to be buried next to your spouse and instead some twisted family member decided to have you stuffed and mounted in their home, I don't think most people would just say "you're already dead so why should you care?" Your memory is being disrespected.

If Terri truly did not want to be kept alive in her present condition, then what her parents are doing is disrespecting her and her memory for their own selfish motivations.

Well the argument against her blood relatives I've seen here is that their desire to keep her alive is fundamentally selfish and based upon sentiment. Well if she's "essentially dead," how is "honoring her wishes" any less a position based upon sentiment than keeping your child alive because you don't honestly believe she is "essentially dead" yet?

I certainly agree with what you say about the importance of honoring someone's wishes. But one would think such an attitude should also translate into honoring the wishes of your spouce's parents, aunts and uncles and siblings. Do we really suppose Terri (or anyone!) would approve of seeing her family go though such emotional turmoil, being of the conviction that she is literally being murdered? Do we really suppose Terri would approve of what is happening in light of medical information that, to objective observers, makes her condition less than known "beyond a reasonable doubt"?

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:12 pm
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Sandman wrote:
TheSurgeon wrote:
You raise an interesting point. I'm going to ignore, for the moment, the distinction between brain dead (she's not) and being in a permanent vegatative state (which she is), and assume she is essentially "dead."
Actually, that's not a difinitive opinion. This affidavit from a neurologist explains that "within a reasonable degree of medical certainy, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a minimally conscious state than a persistant vegetative state," a significant legal distinction.


That affidavit is quite interesting ... I haven't seen that before. Unfortunately, I am not a neurologist and therefore I can't adequately judge the accuracy of what he has written. Additionally, I don't know if there is any difference in the prognosis of a minimally conscious state vs. a permanent vegetative state (something that is not addressed in the affidavit).

Contrary to the opinion of most people, it is my opinion that if she has any awareness of her situation, the argument for allowing her to die is strengthened, not weakened. It is bad enough that she is in the condition she is in ... having awareness of that condition would mean she is truly suffering as a result. Personally, I would much rather be kept alive in a PVS than in a minimally conscious state (not that I would want to be kept alive in either state).

The issue of prognosis would be the crucial factor, however. The chance for improvement in PVS is essentially zero (despite what the "Nobel prize nominated" quack would have you believe). I don't know if the same holds true for a minimally conscious state (although I suspect the prognosis would be the same).

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:51 pm
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Godzilla
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TheSurgeon wrote:
The issue of prognosis would be the crucial factor, however. The chance for improvement in PVS is essentially zero (despite what the "Nobel prize nominated" quack would have you believe). I don't know if the same holds true for a minimally conscious state (although I suspect the prognosis would be the same).

I don't know why you call the guy a quack, but it's my understanding that he is not at all the only medical authority of that opinion. It is also my understanding that Michael disallowed any theraputic treatment that would be normal for someone in her condtion (something he told the court he would be providing for her).

As for the PVS diagnosis, my understanding is that under Florida law, what is happening would not be allow if she was not in a PVS. The "minimally conscous state" diagnosis is significant legally.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:05 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
TheSurgeon wrote:
drumslut wrote:

2. Does anyone know why her husband chose not to divorce her or why he decided to stay married to her? If he's the asshole some portray him to be then he would have done it right away.


Depends upon who you believe. He would probably lose his status as her guardian if he divorced her. If he truly is acting to respect her wishes, he wouldn't want her parents to become guardians and keep her alive against her wishes.

Not to start anything up again, but I was just re-reading the thread (some of it for the first time) and when I came to this, a thougth came to mind. If Terri is really already dead, as some believe, who's wishes is her "husband" honoring? What does it matter to the dead person if her body is cared for by her blood relatives, which brings them comfort? Now, obviously, I don't believe she's brain dead, but it's just something to consider for those who believe her is that dire.


Okay, let's expand upon your point.. Say one of your parents or a child dies. Why not have her embalmed and keep them in a freezer in your house? Afterall, it's not hurting anyone and, hey, it may bring you comfort.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:22 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
Okay, let's expand upon your point.. Say one of your parents or a child dies. Why not have her embalmed and keep them in a freezer in your house? Afterall, it's not hurting anyone and, hey, it may bring you comfort.

Read my post from Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:12 am. My point is not that I'm against honoring someone's wishes.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:31 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Okay, let's expand upon your point.. Say one of your parents or a child dies. Why not have her embalmed and keep them in a freezer in your house? Afterall, it's not hurting anyone and, hey, it may bring you comfort.

Read my post from Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:12 am. My point is not that I'm against honoring someone's wishes.


Then why are you against Michael Schiavo honoring Terri's? :?

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:35 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
Then why are you against Michael Schiavo honoring Terri's? :?

Because, as I interpret the evidence, I don't believe Micheal is doing that.

- For one, I think it is completely outrageous that he's even in the position of being her guardian.

- Terri didn't take any legal action to make her wishes known.

- The medical evidence on her condition ins't conclusive, and Michael Schaivo has forbid tests or therapy to better determine her condition, in spite of Terri's family's wishes. That smells to high heaven.

- I think Michael's blatant disregard for the wishes of Terri's family damages his credibility beyond salvage.

- I think the testimony of Michael's poor treatment of Terri is compelling. I think it's very likely he doesn't have her best interests at heart. What are his REAL motives? I don't know with certainty. But there are plausible theories.

- I don't believe anyone in the situation would want to die of stravation. (It's not a popular means of suicide, is it?)

- I believe we have an unalliable right to life which is unjust for a governement to deny us.

- I believe it is important for a sociaty to closely guard its most vunerable members.

Those are some that come to mind right now.

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Last edited by Sandman on Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:46 pm
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If I was in her condition, I would want to go. Shoot some morphine (?) in me and let me go peacefully.


Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:50 pm
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EKG wrote:
If I was in her condition, I would want to go. Shoot some morphine (?) in me and let me go peacefully.

Fair enough. But remember, you aren't her, or anyone else. So it's not your decision to make. You don't have the moral authority to commit suicide for someone else.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:51 pm
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God Of The Sun

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True.

But do any of us really think she does or would want to live like this?


Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:54 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Then why are you against Michael Schiavo honoring Terri's? :?

Because, as I interpret the evidence, I don't believe Micheal is doing that.


How about the numerous doctors and courts who have?

Sandman wrote:
- For one, I think it is completely outrageous that he's even in the position of being her guardian.


Why is that? He's still her husband. NOBODY can take that away from him.

Sandman wrote:
- Terri didn't take any legal action to make her wishes known.


I've never drawn up a living will either. That doesn't mean that I haven't told my family and friends what my wishes are. How about you?

Sandman wrote:
- The medical evidence on her condition ins't conclusive, and Michael Schaivo has forbid tests or therapy to better determine her condition, in spite of Terri's family's wishes. That smells to high heaven.


Ahhh. The conspiracy. Michael Schiavo only gave up treatment and therapy AFTER he took her to California to have an experimental treatment done. The specialists there told him there was NOTHING anyone could do for her as she has NO real cerebral cortex left.

Sandman wrote:
- I think Michael's blatant disregard for the wishes of Terri's family damages his credibility beyond salvage.


His responsibility is to his wife. Not her family.

Sandman wrote:
- I think the testimony of Michael's poor treatment of Terri is compelling that he doesn't have her best interests at heart. What are his REAL motives? I don't know with certainty. But there are plausible theories.


Poor treatment? After her heart attack, he went to school to become a nurse, provided 24/7 care for her and exhausted all options available to him via medical science. What a horrible man!!


Sandman wrote:
- I don't believe anyone in the situation would want to die of stravation. (It's not a popular means of suicide, is it?)


Unfortunately, it's illegal for a doctor to administer a lethal dose of medication to a patient to end their life. Remember Jack Kevorkian?

Sandman wrote:
- I believe we have an unalliable right to life which is unjust for a governement to deny.


How about a right to die with dignity?

Sandman wrote:
Those are some that come to mind right now.


I'll be happy to debunk anything else you come up with, too.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:54 pm
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EKG wrote:
True.

But do any of us really think she does or would want to live like this?

Since what I said is true, my point is, the answer to that question has no bearing on the situation.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:56 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Then why are you against Michael Schiavo honoring Terri's? :?

Because, as I interpret the evidence, I don't believe Micheal is doing that.


How about the numerous doctors and courts who have?

Sandman wrote:
- For one, I think it is completely outrageous that he's even in the position of being her guardian.


Why is that? He's still her husband. NOBODY can take that away from him.

Sandman wrote:
- Terri didn't take any legal action to make her wishes known.


I've never drawn up a living will either. That doesn't mean that I haven't told my family and friends what my wishes are. How about you?

Sandman wrote:
- The medical evidence on her condition ins't conclusive, and Michael Schaivo has forbid tests or therapy to better determine her condition, in spite of Terri's family's wishes. That smells to high heaven.


Ahhh. The conspiracy. Michael Schiavo only gave up treatment and therapy AFTER he took her to California to have an experimental treatment done. The specialists there told him there was NOTHING anyone could do for her as she has NO real cerebral cortex left.

Sandman wrote:
- I think Michael's blatant disregard for the wishes of Terri's family damages his credibility beyond salvage.


His responsibility is to his wife. Not her family.

Sandman wrote:
- I think the testimony of Michael's poor treatment of Terri is compelling that he doesn't have her best interests at heart. What are his REAL motives? I don't know with certainty. But there are plausible theories.


Poor treatment? After her heart attack, he went to school to become a nurse, provided 24/7 care for her and exhausted all options available to him via medical science. What a horrible man!!


Sandman wrote:
- I don't believe anyone in the situation would want to die of stravation. (It's not a popular means of suicide, is it?)


Unfortunately, it's illegal for a doctor to administer a lethal dose of medication to a patient to end their life. Remember Jack Kevorkian?

Sandman wrote:
- I believe we have an unalliable right to life which is unjust for a governement to deny.


How about a right to die with dignity?

Sandman wrote:
Those are some that come to mind right now.


I'll be happy to debunk anything else you come up with, too.


How old are you?

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:58 pm
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God Of The Sun

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IF I thought it was murder or suicide ;-)


Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:58 pm
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Godzilla
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EKG wrote:
IF I thought it was murder or suicide ;-)

There's no question it's halting the life of an organism, just as it would if I were forbiden to have food and water. Is that murder? It certainly isn't suicide.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:59 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Then why are you against Michael Schiavo honoring Terri's? :?

Because, as I interpret the evidence, I don't believe Micheal is doing that.


How about the numerous doctors and courts who have?

Sandman wrote:
- For one, I think it is completely outrageous that he's even in the position of being her guardian.


Why is that? He's still her husband. NOBODY can take that away from him.

Sandman wrote:
- Terri didn't take any legal action to make her wishes known.


I've never drawn up a living will either. That doesn't mean that I haven't told my family and friends what my wishes are. How about you?

Sandman wrote:
- The medical evidence on her condition ins't conclusive, and Michael Schaivo has forbid tests or therapy to better determine her condition, in spite of Terri's family's wishes. That smells to high heaven.


Ahhh. The conspiracy. Michael Schiavo only gave up treatment and therapy AFTER he took her to California to have an experimental treatment done. The specialists there told him there was NOTHING anyone could do for her as she has NO real cerebral cortex left.

Sandman wrote:
- I think Michael's blatant disregard for the wishes of Terri's family damages his credibility beyond salvage.


His responsibility is to his wife. Not her family.

Sandman wrote:
- I think the testimony of Michael's poor treatment of Terri is compelling that he doesn't have her best interests at heart. What are his REAL motives? I don't know with certainty. But there are plausible theories.


Poor treatment? After her heart attack, he went to school to become a nurse, provided 24/7 care for her and exhausted all options available to him via medical science. What a horrible man!!


Sandman wrote:
- I don't believe anyone in the situation would want to die of stravation. (It's not a popular means of suicide, is it?)


Unfortunately, it's illegal for a doctor to administer a lethal dose of medication to a patient to end their life. Remember Jack Kevorkian?

Sandman wrote:
- I believe we have an unalliable right to life which is unjust for a governement to deny.


How about a right to die with dignity?

Sandman wrote:
Those are some that come to mind right now.


I'll be happy to debunk anything else you come up with, too.


How old are you?


32 years.. Why does this matter?
How old are you?

BTW, my best friend has been a Methodist Minister for 40 years and I discussed this situation with him earlier today. He agrees that Michael Schiavo is doing the right thing. My friend, as a Minister and Korean War Vet has seen more death and suffering than ANY of us. Including his wife who died of cancer.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:01 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
I'll be happy to debunk anything else you come up with, too.
As happy as seeing Terri slowly starve to death? If this is dying with dignity, I won't want any part of it.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:01 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I'll be happy to debunk anything else you come up with, too.
As happy as seeing Terri slowly starve to death? If this is dying with dignity, I won't want any part of it.


As I said before, the religious right in this country won't allow any laws to be passed that will enable doctors to provide a lethal dose of medication to make it more painless and quick.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:06 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
32 years.. Why does this matter?
How old are you?

40. If one was young, it would be easier to excuse your responses. I know that sounds bad. But really, you reject any evidence that doesn't fall in line with justifying her murder. And in a case like this, why are we not applying a "beyond a reasonable doubt" criteria? Afterall, this is someone's life we're taling about. Maybe when the heat of this situation has passed, you'll have a chance to contemplate this some more.

I don't think everything Terri's family says makes sense. For instance, I don't understand, if Michael had attempted to kill Terri, why he would have pursued the bolemia case. I don't know why Terri's brother, in light of that, would claim there is "absolutely no evidence" that Terri was bolemic. (I haven't heard anyone ask him to explain himself either.) But I think there is enough stuff out there that killing her now is premature and a violation of her rights as a human being. Afterall, this isn't a monetary award we're talking about.

Why can't Michael Schaivo just go on with his life? He obviously didn't feel compelled to keep his marriage vows to Terri. Why is he so hell bent on keeping some (possilby non-existant) vow that she be put out of her missery (probably non-existant)?

GTRMAN wrote:
BTW, my best friend has been a Methodist Minister for 40 years and I discussed this situation with him earlier today. He agrees that Michael Schiavo is doing the right thing. My friend, as a Minister and Korean War Vet has seen more death and suffering than ANY of us. Including his wife who died of cancer.

That's fine. I'd have to hear his reasoning to evaluate the strength of his position.

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Last edited by Sandman on Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:14 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I'll be happy to debunk anything else you come up with, too.
As happy as seeing Terri slowly starve to death? If this is dying with dignity, I won't want any part of it.


As I said before, the religious right in this country won't allow any laws to be passed that will enable doctors to provide a lethal dose of medication to make it more painless and quick.
You didn't answer my question. It wasn't hypothetical. The zeal with which you argue this case makes me wonder. If I'm wrong on this, that's fine.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:15 pm
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