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 A Report from Terri Schiavo's Room 
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
SRV463 wrote:
She die yet? how many days has it been?


It's been about five days.. She will likely last about another week.

Well, permanent damage will occur if she doesn't get food and water soon really soon. Remember everyone, she eats through a tube, not because she's not capable of eating orally, but because it's more convenient to feed her through a tube.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:28 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
SRV463 wrote:
She die yet? how many days has it been?


It's been about five days.. She will likely last about another week.

Well, permanent damage will occur if she doesn't get food and water soon really soon. Remember everyone, she eats through a tube, not because she's not capable of eating orally, but because it's more convenient to feed her through a tube.


Like brain damage?

The doctors have done swallow tests and they showed that Terri is unable to eat on her own.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:31 pm
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Godzilla
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GTRMAN wrote:
However, it may come to a point someday that the courts WILL do your thinking for you.

If things continue on this trajectory, you're right. Evidently, if I live in Florida at least, they now will execute me if they think my life is not worth living. Welcome to the Nazi state, where only the "worthy and able" have their rights protected.

GTRMAN wrote:
The doctors have done swallow tests and they showed that Terri is unable to eat on her own.

Well, okay, you're thoroughly misinformed or in denial. Don't be shocked if I disagree with you.

GTRMAN wrote:
I never intentionally kill if it can be helped. I'm arachnophobic to the extreme yet I will not kill a spider in my house. I will find a way, instead, to get it outside.

Just don't venture into his house if you're a handicapped person!

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Last edited by Sandman on Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:32 pm
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Godzilla

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Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
However, it may come to a point someday that the courts WILL do your thinking for you.

If things continue on this trajectory, you're right. Evidently, if I live in Florida at least, they now will execute me if they think my life is not worth living. Welcome to the Nazi state, where only the "worthy and able" have their rights protected.
[/quote]

You still miss the point.. It's not about being "worthy" of living. Apparently Terri Schiavo expressed this to her husband and the courts agreed.

Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
The doctors have done swallow tests and they showed that Terri is unable to eat on her own.

Well, okay, you're thoroughly misinformed or in denial. Don't be shocked if I disagree with you.
[/quote]

Nope, they HAVE done the tests.. It's even mentioned in the legal briefs. Read them.
Sandman wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I never intentionally kill if it can be helped. I'm arachnophobic to the extreme yet I will not kill a spider in my house. I will find a way, instead, to get it outside.

Just don't venture into his house if you're a handicapped person!
[/quote]

Terri Schiavo is not merely "handicapped" as most people use the term. She is just shy of brain-dead. She has NO cognitive functions. She is completely unaware and incapable of thought as WE recognise it. The person who was Terri Schaivo died a long time ago. Only the shell remains.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:51 pm
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Viking Kong
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GTRMAN wrote:
I never intentionally kill if it can be helped.

I'm arachnophobic to the extreme yet I will not kill a spider in my house. I will find a way, instead, to get it outside.
Slightly off subject, although it may not greatly contribute to the discussion at hand, it's this kind of candid honesty that I appreciate. It makes the board interesting. I learned something new about Gtrman. Just an observation.

I have a question for Gtrman, and although it's not directly related to the subject, no matter how you answer, I won't pursue it. Just curious.
How do you stand on the death penalty for convicted murderers?

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:13 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I never intentionally kill if it can be helped.

I'm arachnophobic to the extreme yet I will not kill a spider in my house. I will find a way, instead, to get it outside.
Slightly off subject, although it may not greatly contribute to the discussion at hand, it's this kind of candid honesty that I appreciate. It makes the board interesting. I learned something new about Gtrman. Just an observation.

I have a question for Gtrman, and although it's not directly related to the subject, no matter how you answer, I won't pursue it. Just curious.
How do you stand on the death penalty for convicted murderers?


I'm glad that you learned something from my answer.

I'm struggling with coming to grips with the death penalty, to tell you the truth. There are MANY points of view and many issues to deal with regarding it. It IS a very complicated subject. Part of me agrees with it and the other part is horrified by the prospect.

I do, however, find it ironic that we, in the U.S. will endorse the death penalty yet we will vehemently oppose euthanasia.

Death Penalty=Punishement/revenge
Euthanasia= Compassion/Mercy

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:20 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
It IS a very complicated subject. Part of me agrees with it and the other part is horrified by the prospect.
That's exactly how I feel about this case. While, as I've stated, I'm leaning toward letting her live, this certainly hasn't played out as a black-&-white issue. I wish it was.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:25 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
It IS a very complicated subject. Part of me agrees with it and the other part is horrified by the prospect.
That's exactly how I feel about this case. While, as I've stated, I'm leaning toward letting her live, this certainly hasn't played out as a black-&-white issue. I wish it was.


I can respect that.

It's those people who make it out to be black and white and claim that by letting her die you are committing murder who I have a problem with. They don't seem to know anything about compassion. But that's just my opinion.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:28 pm
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An interesting article regarding media coverage:

ABC Caught: Schiavo Poll Distorted
by Michelle Malkin
Posted Mar 23, 2005


However you feel about the Terri Schiavo case, one fact is indisputable: The mainstream media (MSM) coverage of the matter has been abysmal.

On a fundamental matter of life and death, the MSM heavyweights have proven themselves utterly incapable of reporting fairly. Take a widely publicized ABC News poll released on Monday that supposedly showed strong public opposition to any Washington intervention in Terri's case. Here is how the spinmasters framed the main poll question:

"As you may know, a woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years. Doctors say she has no consciousness and her condition is irreversible. Her parents and her husband disagree on whether or not she should be kept on life support. In cases like this who do you think should have final say, (the parents) or (the spouse)?"

A follow-up question asked:

"If you were in this condition, would you want to be kept alive, or not?"

The problem is that, contrary to what ABC News told those polled, Terri Schiavo is not on "life support" and has never been on "life support." The loaded phrase evokes images of a comatose patient being artificially sustained by myriad machines and pumps and wires. Terri was on a feeding tube. A feeding tube is not a ventilator. Terri can breathe just fine on her own.

And as many of her medical caretakers and parents have argued, if given proper rehabilitation, Terri could learn to chew and swallow on her own as well. She is disabled, not dead.

But ABC News did not see fit to inform either the poll takers or its viewers of the truth. Instead, it misled them -- and the result was a poll response that produced -- voila! -- "broad public disapproval" for any government intervention to spare Terri from slowly starving to death. Blogger Ed Morrissey of Captain's Quarters noted: "Either ABC is completely incompetent in conducting research, or they have attempted to fool their viewers and readership with false polling that essentially lies about the case in question. Since when does ABC conduct push polling for euthanasia?"

Imagine how the poll results might have turned out if ABC News had made clear to participants that Terri is not terminally ill. Not in excruciating pain. Capable of saying "Mommy" and "Help me." And of "getting the feeling she's falling" or getting "excited," in her husband's own testimony, when her head is not held properly.

Imagine how the poll results might have turned out if ABC News had informed participants that in a sworn affidavit, registered nurse Carla Sauer Iyer, who worked at the Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Fla., while Terri Schiavo was a patient there, testified: "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that b---h gonna die?'"

Now, if you were in this situation, would you want to be kept alive, or not?

Not to pick on ABC News, but, well, let's. In an attempt to embarrass Rep. Dave Weldon (R.-Fla.) who noted that withdrawing food and water from someone like Schiavo was extremely rare, ABC's Jake Tapper last week featured this counter-quote from Prof. Bill Allen, of the University of Florida College of Medicine:

"Feeding tubes have been removed in the United States for many years, and it's been a common practice. This has happened in many cases, probably a hundred thousand times in this country."

"A hundred thousand times"? There have been a hundred thousand cases of non-terminally ill, non-brain dead individuals slowly starved and forced to die in this country? Tapper demanded no proof from his professor. Instead, he dismissed lawmakers as ignoramuses contradicted by "experts," cited the biased ABC News poll cited above, and tossed it back to Jennings with this slam: "Terri Schiavo and her family deserved better than the way Congress worked this week."

Meanwhile, contradicting the experience of every starved child in Africa and abandoned street animal at your SPCA shelter, the New York Times informs us: "Experts Say Ending Feeding Can Lead to a Gentle Death."

Is it any wonder the credibility of the MSM is withering on the vine?

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:45 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
An interesting article regarding media coverage:

ABC Caught: Schiavo Poll Distorted
by Michelle Malkin
Posted Mar 23, 2005


However you feel about the Terri Schiavo case, one fact is indisputable: The mainstream media (MSM) coverage of the matter has been abysmal.

On a fundamental matter of life and death, the MSM heavyweights have proven themselves utterly incapable of reporting fairly. Take a widely publicized ABC News poll released on Monday that supposedly showed strong public opposition to any Washington intervention in Terri's case. Here is how the spinmasters framed the main poll question:

"As you may know, a woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years. Doctors say she has no consciousness and her condition is irreversible. Her parents and her husband disagree on whether or not she should be kept on life support. In cases like this who do you think should have final say, (the parents) or (the spouse)?"

A follow-up question asked:

"If you were in this condition, would you want to be kept alive, or not?"

The problem is that, contrary to what ABC News told those polled, Terri Schiavo is not on "life support" and has never been on "life support." The loaded phrase evokes images of a comatose patient being artificially sustained by myriad machines and pumps and wires. Terri was on a feeding tube. A feeding tube is not a ventilator. Terri can breathe just fine on her own.

And as many of her medical caretakers and parents have argued, if given proper rehabilitation, Terri could learn to chew and swallow on her own as well. She is disabled, not dead.

But ABC News did not see fit to inform either the poll takers or its viewers of the truth. Instead, it misled them -- and the result was a poll response that produced -- voila! -- "broad public disapproval" for any government intervention to spare Terri from slowly starving to death. Blogger Ed Morrissey of Captain's Quarters noted: "Either ABC is completely incompetent in conducting research, or they have attempted to fool their viewers and readership with false polling that essentially lies about the case in question. Since when does ABC conduct push polling for euthanasia?"

Imagine how the poll results might have turned out if ABC News had made clear to participants that Terri is not terminally ill. Not in excruciating pain. Capable of saying "Mommy" and "Help me." And of "getting the feeling she's falling" or getting "excited," in her husband's own testimony, when her head is not held properly.

Imagine how the poll results might have turned out if ABC News had informed participants that in a sworn affidavit, registered nurse Carla Sauer Iyer, who worked at the Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Fla., while Terri Schiavo was a patient there, testified: "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that b---h gonna die?'"

Now, if you were in this situation, would you want to be kept alive, or not?

Not to pick on ABC News, but, well, let's. In an attempt to embarrass Rep. Dave Weldon (R.-Fla.) who noted that withdrawing food and water from someone like Schiavo was extremely rare, ABC's Jake Tapper last week featured this counter-quote from Prof. Bill Allen, of the University of Florida College of Medicine:

"Feeding tubes have been removed in the United States for many years, and it's been a common practice. This has happened in many cases, probably a hundred thousand times in this country."

"A hundred thousand times"? There have been a hundred thousand cases of non-terminally ill, non-brain dead individuals slowly starved and forced to die in this country? Tapper demanded no proof from his professor. Instead, he dismissed lawmakers as ignoramuses contradicted by "experts," cited the biased ABC News poll cited above, and tossed it back to Jennings with this slam: "Terri Schiavo and her family deserved better than the way Congress worked this week."

Meanwhile, contradicting the experience of every starved child in Africa and abandoned street animal at your SPCA shelter, the New York Times informs us: "Experts Say Ending Feeding Can Lead to a Gentle Death."

Is it any wonder the credibility of the MSM is withering on the vine?


I agree that the press coverage sucks, but in all fairness, a feeding tube IS legally considered a life support device.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:03 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
Ryan wrote:
It's kind of funny how all of these pro-death advocates are screaming for Terri's personal liberties... when they immediately dismiss any accounts that she has communicated with her parents as being an "impulsive reaction." They then go on to dehumanize Terri, calling her a tax-wasting braindead zombie with a lower IQ than a head of cauliflower.


Even the doctors who have examined her agree. The PERSON who was Terri Schiavo is no longer part of the equation. The lights went out fifteen years ago..


The nurse actually said she has seen Terri communicate with her parents. She said Terri can respond to different situations... even discomfort. She said she placed a hot cloth on Terri's hand to test response, and Mr. Schiavo got angry and said "That's therapy! Stop it!" She says that Mr. Schiavo puts a gag order on everything positive that is known about Terri's condition, and wants us to hear only the negative things.

Are you going to believe the doctors who say negative things about Terri's condition, and disbelieve the ones who say positive things about her condition?

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:49 pm
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Godzilla

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Ryan wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
Ryan wrote:
It's kind of funny how all of these pro-death advocates are screaming for Terri's personal liberties... when they immediately dismiss any accounts that she has communicated with her parents as being an "impulsive reaction." They then go on to dehumanize Terri, calling her a tax-wasting braindead zombie with a lower IQ than a head of cauliflower.


Even the doctors who have examined her agree. The PERSON who was Terri Schiavo is no longer part of the equation. The lights went out fifteen years ago..


The nurse actually said she has seen Terri communicate with her parents. She said Terri can respond to different situations... even discomfort. She said she placed a hot cloth on Terri's hand to test response, and Mr. Schiavo got angry and said "That's therapy! Stop it!" She says that Mr. Schiavo puts a gag order on everything positive that is known about Terri's condition, and wants us to hear only the negative things.

Are you going to believe the doctors who say negative things about Terri's condition, and disbelieve the ones who say positive things about her condition?


The court took her testimony/affidavit into account and found it not to be credible. This is a woman who said she heard Terri speak when EVERYONE else at the hospice and EVERY doctor said that this was certainly not true.
Positive, negative.. Whatever. I let the facts speak for themselves here. The fact is that the doctors(includeing the ones appointed by the government) agree that Terri is in a PVS and will NOT recover. She has lost most of her Cerebral cortex and CANNOT think or reason.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:00 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
I take it you've had a bad experience with infidelity, yourself. You have my condolences.



Not at all. Married for 13 years, go to church every Sunday....believe in LIFE over death and FIDELITY over infidelity.

And nobody in MY family has paid a $25 fine...and none are divorced. So I have no hang ups about it, and believe in it 100%. Something Michael doesn't.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:04 pm
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Godzilla

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KenHower wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
I take it you've had a bad experience with infidelity, yourself. You have my condolences.



Not at all. Married for 13 years, go to church every Sunday....believe in LIFE over death and FIDELITY over infidelity.

And nobody in MY family has paid a $25 fine...and none are divorced. So I have no hang ups about it, and believe in it 100%. Something Michael doesn't.


Well Ken, you are very lucky. This is NOT the case for MOST of the people in the world.
So, would you support Michael Schiavo having sex with Terri on her hospital bed? Afterall, she is his wife.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:43 pm
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GTRMAN wrote:
So, would you support Michael Schiavo having sex with Terri on her hospital bed? Afterall, she is his wife.
O.K. You had me up until this point. Plain distasteful. You may rationalize it all you want, but I'm sad to say you lost some of my respect.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:55 pm
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Godzilla

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Rich L. wrote:
GTRMAN wrote:
So, would you support Michael Schiavo having sex with Terri on her hospital bed? Afterall, she is his wife.
O.K. You had me up until this point. Plain distasteful. You may rationalize it all you want, but I'm sad to say you lost some of my respect.


I'm not endorsing Michael Schaivo do such a thing. I find the idea pretty repulsive, myself. I'm trying to make the point that rather than judge and condemn Michael Schiavo for committing adultery in such an instance, realize that he's a human with needs.
Which would Ken rather see, Michael to find another woman or to go ahead and satisfy his urges with his wife?

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:04 pm
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It appeared to me that you & Ken had a pissin' match going, & you just had to 1-up him, even if it meant stooping to a new low. I don't know about Ken, but your argument came to a grinding halt for me. You cut off your nose to spite your face.

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Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:33 pm
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If Michael wanted to be with another woman, than he should have gotten a divorce.
He even has went to see Terri with his "fiancee" in tow.


Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:20 am
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TheSurgeon wrote:
drumslut wrote:

2. Does anyone know why her husband chose not to divorce her or why he decided to stay married to her? If he's the asshole some portray him to be then he would have done it right away.


Depends upon who you believe. He would probably lose his status as her guardian if he divorced her. If he truly is acting to respect her wishes, he wouldn't want her parents to become guardians and keep her alive against her wishes.

Not to start anything up again, but I was just re-reading the thread (some of it for the first time) and when I came to this, a thougth came to mind. If Terri is really already dead, as some believe, who's wishes is her "husband" honoring? What does it matter to the dead person if her body is cared for by her blood relatives, which brings them comfort? Now, obviously, I don't believe she's brain dead, but it's just something to consider for those who believe her is that dire.

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Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:44 pm
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Sandman wrote:
TheSurgeon wrote:
drumslut wrote:

2. Does anyone know why her husband chose not to divorce her or why he decided to stay married to her? If he's the asshole some portray him to be then he would have done it right away.


Depends upon who you believe. He would probably lose his status as her guardian if he divorced her. If he truly is acting to respect her wishes, he wouldn't want her parents to become guardians and keep her alive against her wishes.

Not to start anything up again, but I was just re-reading the thread (some of it for the first time) and when I came to this, a thougth came to mind. If Terri is really already dead, as some believe, who's wishes is her "husband" honoring? What does it matter to the dead person if her body is cared for by her blood relatives, which brings them comfort? Now, obviously, I don't believe she's brain dead, but it's just something to consider for those who believe her is that dire.


You raise an interesting point. I'm going to ignore, for the moment, the distinction between brain dead (she's not) and being in a permanent vegatative state (which she is), and assume she is essentially "dead." It is still important to most people that their last wishes be respected when they die. If your last wishes were to be buried next to your spouse and instead some twisted family member decided to have you stuffed and mounted in their home, I don't think most people would just say "you're already dead so why should you care?" Your memory is being disrespected.

If Terri truly did not want to be kept alive in her present condition, then what her parents are doing is disrespecting her and her memory for their own selfish motivations.

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